Has Brexit ruined Gransnet?

no breeze

... it isn't OK to make unsubstantiated claims about an act that actually can be a criminal offence.

If it's an opinion then she should say so.

We even have Laws about Libel and Defamation. You can't just say "so what".

If Remainers (I am one) have been sending hate mail and making threats of violence, then they need to be weeded out - just like with Leavers.

Actually GN is one of the few places online or in real life where I DONT see people creating little echo chambers for themselves where they only discuss issues with people that agree with them...

....if anywhere can survive brexit, its GN. We should do community outreach about how to converse with people outside of your echo chamber bubble without being "triggered" and going on a block/delete/remove/ghost rampage/tantrum..

When this was first discussed on GN (the topic in question) I most certainly read the most vile posts where people were telling others to f..k off.

I was shocked. I think GN has clamped down now on swearing and insults but I have read it and it did happen.

And as far as I am aware, this site and this country has freedom of speech.

I did not find any of Day6 offensive or inciting hatred. She said she thinks 'some' people on both sides have been out of order with some comments and if she doesn't want to continue with her argument who do any of you think you are to force her to withdraw her posts.

You are not talking to a 5 year old child who hasn't handed in their homework. Grow up.

Breeze, who are you indeed to decide?

Very strong allegations were made, and they should be backed up, or withdrawn.

'If the pen is mightier than the sword, Remainers have been using theirs to write the vilest hate mail, for the last three years, incessantly.

Shame on you.'

There have been strong disagreements, but none of the above- unless by pm- in which case we need evidence. GNetter can't throw around such accusations without evidence.

To be fair, day 6 said that most vile abuse came from remainers, I don't know if she just meant on here or in the wider world, but its certainly not true in general, where the most extreme forms of unpleasantness/ violence comes from the far right, who use support for Brexit as a cover for their horrible message. This has an appeal to a certain section of white supremacists. I don't think it should be swept under the carpet.

I'm not deciding anything. I'm simply pointing out that it's up to her, not you, or anyone else, if she provides evidence for what she believes.

She can throw around whatever she pleases without evidence.

I would like to remind you this is a flipping forum for opinions that do not require 'evidence' just 'opinions'.

She wasn't breaking any rules. She wasn't inciting violence, she didn't threaten anyone.

Get off your high horse.

Agree suzied

Day6 may well be out shopping or at the spa while people who have no right to are demanding she withdraw her posts

Oh, if it's o.k. with you jura2 I'm just off to cook a meal and watch the gee gees.

If you require evidence of this I shall be unable/unwilling to provide it.

But it's a free country and still will be the sky will not fall in

If you wish to view some vile comments as proof of what may have been referred to by Day6 trawl through some early days Brexit threads. Some of those after the result were vile.

Toodle pip.

breeze- well said!

Indeed, very well said Breeze??
Do some posters think we have been wearing blindfolds for the last three years on here?!
There have been some really awful things hurled at any GNer who said they voted to leave....right from the early days after the referendum.
Not that most of us care, as it seems that sore losers are hitting out right left and centre, in their great fear that we are leaving the EU.Still, let’s have the truth for a change!

Day6 ( or anyone else) does not have to account to a single poster on this forum.

To be fair, day 6 said that most vile abuse came from remainers

That is not in fact how it reads at all. That is not what Day6 posted.
the vilest hate mail means hate mail of an extremely vile nature, the worst - it is not making comparisons between different 'sides'.

I am not defending the post, just stating a fact.
There has been the vilest hate mail from both sides since the referendum. Some forums are quite vicious with the vilest hate messages from both sides.

It is all very sad.

GN is much better than most forums, but even so has seen some posters levelling insults such as ‘thick’ ‘uneducated’
‘Racist’ ‘little englanders’ etc to Leavers.
GN will weather it, but it’s been an unedifying spectacle.

In fact, I have decided to call time on any Brexit thread,
We will leave with some sort of deal no doubt and I can live with that.
All that is happening now is Groundhog Day on GN.

I don't think anyone has been directly called a thick racist on here, maybe pointed out that such people do exist in our society, which some obviously take personally. Not the same as death or rape threats directly at a person in the public eye or threats to incite violence, carrying a gallows around for certain people, shouting vile abuse at people - Ive seen this from a certain section using Brexit as an excuse for racism all horrible. I don't think we should pretend it doesn't happen , as extremism feeds off apathy. Decent leave voters should openly distance themselves from these types, as otherwise its extremely dangerous for our society.

I totally agree Breeze, Lemon, and Suzied. I have previously, on another thread, once had a Gransnetter demanding ‘proof’ and ‘evidence’ of something I had written. I can’t even remember exactly what the thread was about now, though I do know it was something about the referendum. I think the poster was irritated by my saying that although I voted remain, I think I would now vote leave, and demanded more than once that I provide evidence for whatever I had said. Posters on this thread are quite correct in saying that this is a free country and we value free speech, so unless the speech is ‘hate speech’ there is no way anyone can be chastised for voicing an opinion. It does not require the speaker to explicitly say it’s an opinion. For Pete’s sake, this is Gransnet! We’re not in a court of law requiring absolute proof, we’re a lot of oldish ladies and a few oldish gentlemen discussing things. None of what we say will change one single thing anywhere or ever.

But you can't level accusations without proof, so best not to write them.

maddyone I disagree with you.

Someone recently made an outrageous statement on one political thread, that went in the face of all the evidence from other independent sources. When challenged, the source she gave was an extreme right wing American website which had been listed as a promulgator of fake news by one of the several US Federal investigations that followed Donald Trump's election.

The poster was entirely free to hold any opinions or views they liked, but others should be equally free to ask for the source of the data and reach their own conclusions on the validity of the data. If you call on evidence from elsewhere to support your argument then they should be prepared to put the source of it up for examination.

I quite often ask people making sweeping statements the evidence for their statements and I will continue to do so. I try to always back up any external information source I cite with a link to it. A lot of problems could be solved if others did likewise.

I think we need to be clear about whether we are stating our own opinions, someone else's opinion, or claiming that a statement we're making is fact.
If we're dealing with facts, especially if others might dispute it, it's best to back the statement up with evidence and links are helpful.
If we're quoting someone else's opinion, it's only courtesy to reference that.
Opinions can be any nonsense we like, as long as we're prepared for others to disagree with us. They should be prefaced with 'I think.....'. Or IMHO so that there's no doubt that we're stating opinion and not fact.

The facts are there is utter nonsense spouted by both sides. There are racists and bigots on both sides. There are lies on both sides and prejudice and patronising attitudes on both sides.

And no one has any idea what leaving without a deal will lead or what revoking article 50 would lead. No one actually knows anything for sure it’s all speculation.

It’s not the start of WW3 and anyone who has very strong opinions on it needs to calm down and get a bloody grip.

Britain will be fine staying or leaving.

Apricity
Hmm, I wonder how those 'isolationist' unwelcoming tribes in far off countries have existed.

Ginny, you are right, you can’t level personalaccusations on Gransnet, because it’s called a personal attack and not allowed, quite rightly in my opinion.

Thank you for your comments Monica, it’s completely fair that you disagree with what I said, but the fact that you disagreed politely is key. No one could take any offence from your comments.

Jane, I think you’re right that it’s probably good practice to actually say IMHO. I think maybe posters get carried away though and sometimes forget to add that it’s their opinion. I admit to that sometimes.

Good post mycatisahacker.

Of course posters can be ‘chastised’ for posting an opinion - I wouldn’t actually use that word but I would certainly challenge someone who posted an opinion masquerading as fact or based on false information.

Mycatisahacker - good post.

I've been off air for a couple of days so sorry if you think I should have come back here sooner. I have read through all the posts and enjoyed the comments so thank you and as I say I was just asking.

I don't think Brexit has ruined GN. There's certainly been hugely vigorous debate, many strongly differing opinions, and some posts have been pretty bloody rude IMO. But I don't think it's ruined GN.
The site isn't just about knitting patterns and grand parenting (important though those things are )
We're a diverse bunch, and we don't lose our passions and opinions just because we've aged.
I do sometimes cringe when I feel someone has been aggressive or deliberately ptovoking on the Brexit thread.
Then I read the outpouring of support, experienced advice and comradeship on other threads.
There will always be the bugger who thinks they know everything and isn't afraid to make that clear to the rest of us.
But there are so many other posters: wise, diverse, insightful, funny, warm, serious, irreverant on so many subjects.
Long live GN I say