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Why Labour is haemorrhaging

(88 Posts)
thatbags Wed 06-Jul-16 19:09:40

Insightful article from Quillette. Comments interesting too.

An extract:
"In Britain, the task is to marry metropolitan modernity with English small-c conservative culture, and to fuse them into a common sense of national purpose. This would mean acknowledging and incorporating all the things both London and Brussels elites have dismissed as anachronisms: tradition, a respect for settled ways of life, a sense of place and belonging, a desire for home and rootedness, the continuity of relationships at work and in one’s neighbourhood."

POGS Fri 08-Jul-16 12:45:50

It doesn't matter Anniebach but when there is a 'possible' change of user name or a new member so clearly following a poster in a certain manner I find it interesting.

I think there is an acceptance we post between us as a group of people who have established certain protocols, established a certain amount of understanding as to how we view other posters, assess what type of character those we choose to respond to may be like.

When a new user name starts his/her posting in a manner that is showing well known similarities, posts in a manner that shows a knowledge of other posters I wonder whom I am actually going to possibly engage with.

Anniebach Fri 08-Jul-16 13:11:18

But POGS, you are engaging with another poster , that's it surely

Lazigirl Fri 08-Jul-16 13:22:39

Good grief. You regulars are getting paranoid. I find as a relative newcomer most posters just ignore me anyway. Am happy with that - Chill everyone. smile

thatbags Fri 08-Jul-16 13:25:28

Who mentioned a need to, ab?

thatbags Fri 08-Jul-16 13:26:14

Hello, lazigirl. I've read a few of your posts smile

Anniebach Fri 08-Jul-16 13:28:32

Lazigirl grin , I have problems remembering names of those who post regularly without agonising if a new poster is an old poster with a new name

Anniebach Fri 08-Jul-16 13:30:00

thstbags, is there wan't a need no one would have mentioned it,

DaphneBroon Fri 08-Jul-16 15:19:36

POGS do you mean like soontobe and obieone?
hmm
????

Bluecat Fri 08-Jul-16 19:57:14

Frankly, I thought the article was miles off the mark.

For a start, Labour isn't haemorrhaging. That would imply it is either losing members or votes. It now has a record number of members, and to sneer at those who have joined because of Corbyn makes no sense. Of course people will join a party if they feel strongly that the leader is expressing their views, and will leave if they feel disillusioned. (Unless you think thousands of people across the country are engaged in some sort of left-wing conspiracy, in which case you are beyond rational argument!) As for votes, we won't really know until a General Election. A third of Labour voters opting to Leave means nothing as far as support for the party is concerned. None of the parties have been wholly for or against the EU, and there have always been Labour supporters, on both wings of the party, who have wanted the UK to leave. It would be equally simplistic to assume that a Tory voting for Brexit was simply voting against Cameron or for Boris. I'm actually quite surprised that two-thirds of Labour voters went for Remain, given that the issue cuts across party politics.

As for "swathes of Labour MPs" failing to understand their core constituents, I'd say that most of them think their voters hold conservative values, hence their determination to emulate Tory policies in a milder form and their panic at having an actual socialist at the helm. Whether they are right or wrong remains to be seen. I remember reading a survey, a couple of years ago, which found that the general public were actually more radical than the political parties on most issues except immigration. Unfortunately, the Leave campaign centred on immigration, which should have given them a pretty easy win. Surprising, really, that they only managed a winning margin of less than 4%, given that migration is such an emotive issue.

thatbags Fri 08-Jul-16 20:33:08

Labour lost a lot of votes in the last election, blue. It now has only one Westminster MP, for instance. That counts as bad bleeding in my book if not haemorrhaging.

DaphneBroon Fri 08-Jul-16 21:17:33

Am I missing something?
thatbags you surely cannot mean it when you say Labour only has one Westminster MP

Who are all those people I see on the opposition benches then? confused

thatbags Fri 08-Jul-16 21:37:23

Whoops! I meant only one Scottish Labour MP. There used to be rather more.

DaphneBroon Fri 08-Jul-16 21:42:13

Ah, that figures.
Labour did get an absolute kicking in Scotland at the last General Election.
IMHO they paid the price for a London-centric "champagne Socialist " Labour Party as typified by the Millibands , which had absolutely nothing to say to Scotland.

obieone Sat 09-Jul-16 07:36:05

Based on the article, and grans on gransnet who can't see the problem just like the article says, I think the Labour Party will split into two fairly even parts, numbers wise.

Anniebach Sat 09-Jul-16 08:28:08

And in my opinion, it was not the fault of Milliband that Scotland turned SDP

Anya Sat 09-Jul-16 08:32:08

I'd agree with that AB - the rot started with Blaire and continued through Brown.

thatbags Sat 09-Jul-16 09:44:45

Do you mean SNP, ab?

Anniebach Sat 09-Jul-16 09:50:47

Yes I do thstbags , thank you

obieone Sat 09-Jul-16 13:10:17

Is it possible that there are 3 different camps in the Labour Party?
The Corbynites, the Blairites, and those like Ab who are now not in either camp?

Lazigirl Sat 09-Jul-16 14:51:10

Labour and Lib Dems have apparently increased membership by 30% since EU result. I would consider this a surge rather than haemorrhage, and like Bluecat don't think this is just down to Corbyn in Labour's case. I do think the PLP has behaved badly with terrible timing, but I think the split among LP members is exaggerated and I believe if there was a general election tomorrow the Tories would lose.

johnofwhixall Sat 09-Jul-16 21:01:00

Does anybody out there think that we have an politician that are worth a light be they Labour or Conservative or whoever Stephen Crabb recently said that the Westminster political classes have lost the trust of the people and following a referendum campaign in which it would have been easier to find the Holy Grail than the tiniest modicum of truth I would suggest he was right and the whole damn lot were lackluster and self serving
I recently heard someone exclaim "Guy Fawkes Where are you when we need you the most" and whilst i am not a violent man I applaud the sentiment behind the words

Tegan Sat 09-Jul-16 22:20:07

Stephen Crabb who says homosexuality can be cured? I agree about the lies [I still can't get over that].I do trust Tim Farron which is why I'm going to join the LibDems.

Anniebach Sat 09-Jul-16 22:25:42

I firmly believe there are MP's who entered the house because they want to do good for he country.

Eloethan Sun 10-Jul-16 01:28:02

The writer of the article says that Labour now only attracts the support of a small section of the electorate - "university graduates, public sector workers and certain ethnic minorities". And the author was Adrian Plats - a reader in Politics at the University of Kent, so he's an academic himself. I did not go to university, neither did my son or my husband but we all vote Labour. Most of my working life was spent in the private sector, as has my son's past 18 years of employment. My Dad didn't go to university and worked all his life in a white collar job in the private sector - he voted Labour.

It's daft trying to second guess who is going to vote what on the basis of where they were educated or work or live. There are, of course, certain trends but if it is suggested that all we can hope to expect politically is, broadly speaking, a continuation of the status quo, with just a b it of tinkering around at the edges, then I think that is most depressing.

Previous Labour governments were brave and ambitious, despite many challenges. They unapologetically put forward radical policies - such as the creation of the NHS and the introduction of state pensions and a welfare "safety net" - and in later years brought in the Open University and all manner of legislation to fight all types of discrimination.

My own feeling is that the Labour Party is now far too timid in its ambitions and too willing to follow a Tory-lite agenda. Of course, if people see no radical difference between the parties, they are more likely to go along with what the newspaper headlines and mainstream media tell them - and it is common knowledge that these news sources are, in the main, controlled by powerful supporters of the Conservative Party.

It is not people like Corbyn who has "ceased to represent those people it was set up to defend". It is the MPs who are now trying to get rid of him - those that by and large went along with the austerity agenda, who failed to challenge the lie that it was over-spending that caused the difficulties here in 2008 - when nearly every other country in Europe - and the US - were hit by a disaster precipitated by the financial institutions. Most people agree now that the PFI contracts entered into by "New Labour" as part of their touchy-feely "new relationship" with big business and privatisation, has been a complete disaster. Most people are also angry that the MPs in this country were duped into, or too scared or lazy to question, the illegal invasion of another country that posed no threat to us. All these decisions were supported by the sort of MPs who are now trying to kick Corbyn out.

The writer also says:

"In Britain, the task is to marry metropolitan modernity with English small-c conservative culture, and to fuse them into a common sense of national purpose. This would mean acknowledging and incorporating all the things both London and Brussels elites have dismissed as anachronisms: tradition, a respect for settled ways of life, a sense of place and belonging, a desire for home and rootedness, the continuity of relationships at work and in one’s neighborhood"

Presumably then, even the Conservative Party doesn't represent "conservative" values. I don't believe they have provided a "sense of national purpose". On the contrary, I think they have demonised different groups of people in order to push through their policies, leading to a divided country where various groups are pitted against each other to fight for diminishing resources.

And which party has promoted "a respect for settled ways of life, a sense of place and belonging, a desire for home and rootedness, the continuity of relationships at work and in one’s neighbourhood." I would say, not a party that has encouraged zero hours contracts which leave people with no idea whether they will achieve a full week's work; who have done nothing to help the growing number of renters to achieve a fair rent and some security of tenure beyond one year; or which has encouraged the sell off of social housing and the introduction of a bedroom tax which has forced many families to move regularly and for greater distances.

The reference to globalisation is an important one. I met up with former work colleagues yesterday and was told that the international law firm where I worked for several years is now planning, through some complicated arrangement, to move all its business services - IT, Marketing, Accounts - to Warsaw. This appears to be a growing trend and presumably our exit from the EU will make very little difference to this sort of outsourcing/undercutting.

I agree with you trisher that there has always been people of all political persuasions that will turn on immigrants when times get tough - and, like you, I believe the Labour Party should stand firm against those sort of views even if it means losing their votes.

obieone I don't know what you're talking about when you speak of Labour "elites" on Gransnet. People generally don't fit into neat categories of political thought. I would describe myself as on the left but that doesn't mean that my thoughts and ideas will be exactly the same as someone else on the left. I can quite understand why Daphne got a bit heated - it isn't very nice referring to someone as "one of those posters" - what exactly do you mean by that?

johnofwhixall Sun 10-Jul-16 09:51:54

Tegan, Don't know much about curing anything, but I hear what you say about Tim Farron and also what Anniebach says about good MP's

I just wish they would nail their colours to the mast an come out of hiding instead of squabbling about who leads what
Perhaps it would do if the Mays and Eagles and Leadsoms and the other malcontents realised that Great men do not seek power, they have power thrust upon them.
Maybe that would start to rebuild trust