How poor is poor?

I cannot but agree with everything Grannyactivist has said. Having had a very poor childhood myself and never had much as a young (single) mother I am now, thanks to having started my own business some years ago, quite well off but, as you said, there is no way I will ever forget what it's like to have nothing and I, too, am very grateful for the comforts I now enjoy.

Another thing that is impossible to shake off is the saving habit. I cannot bear to waste things, food in particular, and can't see the point of replacing applicances that still work perfectly well. I am never happier than when I find a bargain - a bargain being defined as something I needed anyway, and managed to find cheaper than expected.

Respect also to Bikergran. Your father sounds like a lovely man, so why not let him help? From personal experience I feel happier spending on my children than on myself, so it may make him happy, too?

Imagine your child asking if you can have two ounces of sweets and the Mum looks in her purse, and all there is in it is a little gold safety pin!
I think DM used to keep a little gold safety pin in her purse - perhaps it was meant to bring good luck.

ninathenana the old unmarried lady who lived next door to us when I was growing up seemed desperately poor. DF was forever going in to 'unplug my drain, please, Mr G' and she wore terrible old clothes - a summer dress in the depths of winter with a shrunken grey cardigan over the top done up with a safety pin. DM used to pass her a Sunday dinner over the hedge and always a Christmas dinner. However, DM said, much as she would like to invite her over, she couldn't because she smelt so awful!
When she died we discovered she owned that house, the one next door, another in the town and the house was stuffed full of banknotes.

Yes, let him help you, Bikergran, it will give him pleasure.

Perhaps you could offer to pay him back if you get your business up and running and making a profit.

The official definition of poverty is 60% of median income (£25,600), so that'll be £15,360 then.

Riverwalk The point I was making re my neighbours frugal lifestyle was that although she appeared poor to those who didn't know her she was far from it and unless you know appearances can be deceptive.
I do think a fair few pensioners need the help of foodbanks and can't afford the heating they need. Just what I think.

Sorry, but I really couldn't resist.

fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/poverty_measure_changes_income-50463
The government wants to change the definition of poverty so there is no reference to income.

Bikergran.... another way of looking at your df offer of help.... perhaps he feels a little sad that you don't take him up on it

£15,360 then

But that is relative to where you live, how many people you may have to support and other factors such as transport to work etc etc

I think reluctant dependency on benefits or barely being able to earn enough for basics (roof/food/utility bills) suggests poverty.

Following a life crisis my brother was dependent on benefits and consequently now lives with me. It was an expense for him to get into the Job Centre /attend interviews which if he did not do he would not have received any benefit. I can see how people easily spiral into being rough sleepers after a bout of illness /job loss /marital breakup etc.

The western world /business world is more and more reliant on cars/ internet and one can be penalised in being able to access work if you do not have these .

Op asked how we would define poverty. Definition and perception are two completely different things.
People on here are surely talking about their perception of poverty, not their definition.

Bikergran please take your kind father's offer. I desperately want to give my hard earned wealth to my children rather than the Exchequer (which has already had more than is decent from me,)and am very saddened if they decline and I know that I would give with an open hand never mentioning it again as I am sure your father would. I also think you would be a very good DIY person especially if you specialised in offering to nervous people on their own.

and there are different types of poverty

I guess the OP was talking about income poverty. Some people on very low incomes have the inner resources to use education, access free cultural experiences etc and enrich their lives. Others are overwhelmed by the stresses and strains of poverty and find it very hard to change their situation and remain poor financially, educationally and culturally.

Equally you can have folk with plenty of income who are financially, educationally and culturally poor.

I f you need a job you need the internet. If you haven't got a computer or iPhone or wifi you need to go to a library or a coffee shop . You need bus fares and the money for a coffee. The cost of a coffee in Starbucks appals me (the quality is irrelevant) and bus fares ! Bus fares are expensive relative to income IMO from when I was job hunting.

I agree with most of these definitions of poverty, I am on a low income because my work is so variable, sometimes I earn nothing for a week. Therefore I get nothing like the £23,000 quoted above.

I had to live on £73 a week when I was on the sick a few months ago and just couldn't do it, I had to live on my credit card which is now a struggle to pay off so I sympathise with anyone struggling, Christmas has been very hard for me. The thing I cant understand though that almost everyone on benefit can smoke, drink and buy huge amounts of food. I have been in the queue in the supermarket and seen huge amounts of food piled into baskets of people I know are on benefits where I have had to think about every item Ive bought and I don't drink and never have smoked. How do they do it ? Is this the 'new relative poverty' that we hear of

Totally agree Stansgran

oh dear penstemmon I must be culturally rich as a few pounds in my purse means I can buy books from the charity shop, a gift voucher means I can buy some paints or a sketch book. I brought my DD up on visits to the theatre, museums and art galleries, trips to stately homes but I never had a penny for myself, I prioritised expanding our horizons.
Apart from food everything else came second hand. I don't think I was a bad mother.

Why does it have to turn into a competition?

I only heard of the phrase virtue signalling for the first time on here the other day, but if I understood it correctly then there's a lot of it on this thread.

I think it's pointless harking back so far back that we're talking about the time before the NHS, Social Services, Social Security, etc. because the level of poverty around then doesn't happen in this day and age.

But some things don't change. Children still recognise the kid in the class who is poor and/or not well cared for by its parent(s). The children who can't go on school trips, even local trips. The children without the correct things for school.

And there are few poor pensioners in this day and age too, not since the government started paying the winter fuel allowances. That doesn't mean that there are not still pensioners who don't turn on the heating, or with a really low income. But they do often have money in the bank they won't touch - and it can stop them claiming Sometimes they say it's because of the stigma because they don't want anyone to know about the money in the bank.

We can discuss this until the cows come home. If you are poor you can make the best of things, but you are still poor and you know it. Same goes for living in poverty. The difference between the two is you can be poor and happy.

Well said Wilma

Wilma, according to ageuk, over 1.8 million pensioners live in poverty. I wouldn't call that a few.

I sometimes wonder what is the ongoing effect of our use of credit cards and these awful payday loans. Credit cards give people a distorted view of money, what they own, what they want to own and how much money they actually have etc. My income is way below the £15,000 mentioned, but at least I owe nothing.

dj the figure of 1.8 million is relative poverty and that is not poverty in my mind. .

I only heard of the phrase virtue signalling for the first time on here the other day, but if I understood it correctly then there's a lot of it on this thread.
I don't think it is virtue signalling to point out that being poor is relative to the era in which we live - when a poster mentioned her father having to leave school at 14 and work even though he was clever, and that they had ice on the inside of their windows when she was a child, I don't think it was wrong to point out that that was probably the norm for those days.

She and I were probably both trying to point out what was normal in times gone by would be considered below the poverty level and extreme deprivation in this day and age.

I don't think anyone is competing to prove they are (or were) poorest, but it does prove djen's point that
Definition and perception are two completely different things.

rosequartz it wasn't your post or the others about poverty many years ago that prompted me to post about virtue signalling. My comment about mentioning poverty pre the NHS, etc., was meant as a separate comment. Sorry if it didn't come over that way.

Pensioner poverty remains stubbornly persistent in the UK, affecting 1.6m people living on or below the poverty line and 900,000 people living in severe poverty.

This is despite older people being entitled to benefits designed to increase their income. We know that as many as 1.6m older people who are entitled to Pension Credit are not claiming it - this could mean them receiving an extra £1,700 a year.

That would put food in the cupboards or, in Lily's case, pay the heating bills to keep her warm in winter.

From the ageuk website. 1.8 million in relative poverty, and these figures as well.