Another vaccine hiccup

It was initially branded to be one of the more efficient vaccines with only one shot needed and storage in an ordinary 'fridge as opposed to a freezer like the others.

It will delay the roll out as it did in Europe. They are a way behind the UK now.

They aren’t at all AGAA4, they have vaccinated only 2% less of their population than the UK, 57%, so are doing really well in the USA. according to Our World in Data - I’m glad to say. Other countries are making real headway now too, including some in Europe. It’s an improving picture.

Sorry I meant Europe. I know USA are doing ok but would do better without delays.

It’s a similar type of vaccine to the the Astra Zeneca vaccine, ie based on the adenovirus, so I guess this isn’t unexpected. I read that they’d vaccinated 7 million in US with it prior to putting it on hold, and the number of rare type blood clots were very few.

6 cases ( all female between age 18-48) in more than 7 million people vaccinated with this vaccine, so very rare. Wise for them to pause and review the data.

I wonder who’s carrying the liability in the States for J and J? I don’t know which route the FDA went down.

I would have thought these adenovirus type of vaccines would have been the most trouble free as they use a process already tried and tested, while the ones with mRNA are new technology. Instead they seem to be the ones with more teething problems.

You’d think so logically wouldn’t you BlueSky.
I was interested in volunteering for new combination vaccine trials but unfortunately not in eligible postcode. I think they are using Moderna and Novavax in addition to Pfizer and AZ.

BlueSky

I would have thought these adenovirus type of vaccines would have been the most trouble free as they use a process already tried and tested, while the ones with mRNA are new technology. Instead they seem to be the ones with more teething problems.

I thought that too.

You are even more likely to have the same type of blood clot if you get COVID.

So (imaginary figures). if the chance of blood clots with the vaccination is 1: 100,000 and the chance of blood clot with COVID is 1 : 20,000. Which is the safer option?

That's right, the vaccination is safer than getting COVID when it comes to clots (of all kinds)

This is probably what people were telling those who died

-from the vaccination that is. One chap was as fit as a flea with no underlying health problems. Can anyone account for that ? No, they can't. It's too late what to think once that needle is in the muscle.

The risk of a blood clotting is much higher if you actually have COVID than if you have the vaccine. It’s Hobson’s choice.
news.sky.com/story/risk-of-blood-clot-after-covid-is-eight-times-higher-than-after-astrazeneca-jab-study-12276088

We know that the risk of a blood clot is higher for those who get Covid, but the risk of Covid for the older age groups is much higher anyway, whilst the risks of Covid for the vast majority of young healthy people under 30 or even under 40 are very small. It may seem to them that the risk of a blood clot from a vaccine is greater than the risk of dying of Covid. It seems to me that the risk of a blood clot from the vaccine is still so minute that younger people should still have it, but they may very well think differently.

The position adopted maddy as you say can only be judged not by giving overall risks but by the balance of risks and benefits in each age group. Given this, offering an alternative to the under 30s is extremely sensible. I don’t know why anyone wants to criticise this decision

EllanVannin Looking at it dispassionately, the type of blood clots involved are very rare. If this man died after having the vaccine, isn't it likely that exactly the same thing would have happened if he had caught the disease and with him otherwise in good health no-one would have known enough to warn him that he would be in great danger if he caught it and should, ideally be shielding.

That’s an interesting thought M0nica, young people do unfortunately randomly suffer from cerebral haemorrhages, in fact a member of my extended family died at the age of 30 with no pre-warning. I wonder if the people who have had the clots following the vaccine would have succumbed to a clot at some point anyway?

Casdon that was my first query when these things happened. Would the deaths of these people have occurred as swiftly as they did post-vaccination. We've never been given any clarity.

They may not be able to yet EllanVannin, as they are such rare events it may need a retrospective study to see if the number of incidences and deaths over the next few years from this type of clot is lower as a result of a higher than expected number happening earlier than they otherwise would as a result of the vaccine?

Dr John still thinks that the needle should be aspirated because the vaccine will work in a different way if it goes into a vein and not muscle. His latest blog explains this. The Sputnik vaccine works in the same way so we need to get to the bottom of why this is happening. Also it seems that heparin, which is used to treat blood clots mustn’t be used in these cases.

Casdon

That’s an interesting thought M0nica, young people do unfortunately randomly suffer from cerebral haemorrhages, in fact a member of my extended family died at the age of 30 with no pre-warning. I wonder if the people who have had the clots following the vaccine would have succumbed to a clot at some point anyway?

But I thought the blood clot involved in the vaccine cases was a particularly rare kind associated with a low platelet count - quite different from other kinds.I read an account the other day by the doctor and her team who discovered this. I’ll see if I can find it

Here it is - worth reading.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/how-uk-doctor-marie-scully-blood-clotting-link-astrazeneca-covid-jab-university-college-london-hospital?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

That’s what I read too Suziewoosie, as that that type of clot occurs naturally, the mystery was whether the people who died after the vaccine had a pre-disposition which meant they would have suffered a clot anyway, but at a later stage- or not. I haven’t seen that possibility discussed, would be grateful to see an article if you have seen any more about this?