Group dynamics.

You have phrased this as if the tension between A and B is something relatively new.

I’d be inclined to have a quiet word with each and ask what’s going on because chances are it’s something petty that has festered.

All four or you should have equal say in what you do together irrespective of who drives. Perhaps it’s because C and D have gone with the flow that A and B have become competitive.

Time for a reset.

Erm....thinks...start with suggesting a coffee all together at a point all can make to discuss "putting a few dates in our diaries ahead and what we'll all do in advance so we know what we'll do".

It wont totally avoid conflict but less chance for on the spot manipulation on the evening or the day out?

Maybe not new but sort of got more that way as people have got older?

That’s not a dynamic I recognise from my life, but I’m not one for group outings, I prefer one-to-one.

Your description of what happens in your group reminds me of my two youngest grandchildren when they niggle away at each other. Their parents generally deal with it by separating them temporarily to have some thinking time but I guess that’s not an option on an adult’s day out!

Do they complain about each other when apart ie is there a general dislike between them? People do change and their new persona isn’t always likeable.

Are you be brave enough to say to them that you’ve noticed they’re not enjoying the events lately and are there changes they’d like?

It would be a shame to lose the group but my tolerance for being made to feel uncomfortable by other people’s behaviour is very low now and I’d probably decide not to go any more.

All this is assuming there’s no likelihood of dementia rearing it head, or other illnesses making them cantankerous.

Could you ask for a show of hands when decisions are being made which will affect everyone? If it's a draw, toss a coin.

Thanks for the suggestions. I don’t think it is a ‘childish’ thing, so much as an older person thing - both A and are acting in ways that fit with how life has taught them, I suppose. One that she won’t do what others tell her - a sort of ‘make a stand’ mentality, and the other that she is just doing what she enjoys and would do if others weren’t there.

Both are in the wrong and both are right, depending on how you look at it. I don’t see one as more ‘to blame’ than the other.

The driving thing is important, as A can easily add things into trips, and the rest of us can’t easily say no, or even ‘you go ahead and we’ll meet you at X’, as we are all travelling with her. That’s just what she’s used to, I think - when not with us, she plans ‘on the hoof’, so I don’t think it’s a new thing, any more than is A’s rebellion against having to fit in with others’ choices - both have just decided on ways to deal with the way life has gone (‘I won’t be pushed around any more’, or ‘I will put me first for a change’), and that side of things is causing the clash.

I honestly don’t think that someone taking them aside to tell them off would help, as I think they are both doing what they think is best, if that makes sense. If they were children then explaining about group dynamics might help, but perhaps (and this could well be me overthinking!) it is a reaction to the group dynamics that they have lived with so far that is underpinning the situation.

I do think that asking for a show of hands could work, or more of an agreement about what a day out will entail before we go. It’s a shame, as spontaneous changes are fun, but this tension is not.

I was once appointed to be group lead at a WI meeting. We had a couple of bossy women in the group who wanted to have their say first. I said: 'Right, we will go around the group and each one of us have our say when our turn comes. We will let the others speak as we are all equally important. It worked and said bossy women had to back down as the other supported me. We had a great end result and the quieter ones actually came up with better suggestions for outings.

Phew, sounds exhausting. Could you take a step back for a week or 2?

It doesn't sound very enjoyable. Do you have to rely on a driver? Could you maybe just meet somewhere in town arranged by email or phone? If someone doesn't want to go to the venue then they don't have to. Day outings by train too?
I suppose the alternative is to stick to the current situation which sounds like it could blow up eventually.

Could the 4 of you just take a vote in the car on where/if to stop for food?

If not then I think if this were me in such a situation I’d be saying “you two are getting exhausting to be with. Aw c’mon ladies, sort yourselves out for the good of the group! It’s annoying to be so fractious.”

I think as age sometimes we tend to 'revert to type' and aspects of our personality that perhaps we have controlled or has been less dominant in the past, comes forward.

Ditheres get worse, those used to dominating get worse

I think that both your easy going friend and yourself need to have a chat and agree to be a bit more assertive in order to counter the two bossy women and perhaps rein them in. Try to speak up next time and when A won’t agree with B suggest an alternative or suggest that the friend who says she isn’t hungry that maybe she could come along anyway because service can be slow so she could be hungry by the time her food arrives or suggest she just orders something light with a drink. This might check her passive aggressiveness because you are considering her needs.
But sounds tiring and rather irritating.
Good luck 🤞

I like FGT's sentence if one is brave!

Doodledog you wrote "I do think that asking for a show of hands could work, or more of an agreement about what a day out will entail before we go. It’s a shame, as spontaneous changes are fun, but this tension is not."

My suggestion of having a little planning session therefore ie a few dates in diary with planned events? If one of the says "I dont see why we should have to bother" then I guess you would have to come out with something like,

" well we have been having disagreements on the trips and I find them upsetting, it would be really nice to set out with it all sorted"?

personally I'd find that easier than a vote, where you have to "out" yourself by being seen "whose side you take". Poor you, I hope there is a way forward.

Why not confront them and say how uncomfortable this makes you and your other friend. Too me, they sound very childish and you are making excuses for them for the sake of a group outing.

Thanks again for the suggestions. I don’t want to step back as I like the little group, (and I am sure that A and B like one another😀).

I had an idea - next time it happens I could say ‘It’s up to A, B or C, as they organised the day’, and try to set a precedent so that it’s not who’s driving, it’s the one who suggested the outing/booked the tickets who chooses. It can’t be me the first time, but my turn will come if it works.

Now thats a good one. "taking turns".

I was just about to post this when I saw your latest ... which amounts to the same thing.

Perhaps do what we do as a group of four friends who go for a long walk and pub lunch most weeks. We take it in strict turns to chose a circular route and take the lead for the day including locating a pub or cafe to have lunch. If there’s nothing en route, we take a sandwich and stop off for a drink at the end but it’s up to the leader for the day to do the scouting.

Three live reasonably close to one another. We all drive but I’m the outlier so I accept that I usually end up driving a bit further to the start point but that’s not a problem. Sometimes we will walk a route closer to me in which case they might car share but that isn’t always the case depending on what people are doing afterwards.

The key point is that all four of us take it in turns to choose.

Doesn't sound much fun. I think I'd rather stay at home.

theworriedwell

Doesn't sound much fun. I think I'd rather stay at home.

No, as I keep saying (😀) I don’t want to back off. The group is a successful one on the whole. We enjoy one another’s company and all bring different things to the table. I like all of the others very much, and I think we all feel the same.

The problem is that as we age, many people make decisions about what we will tolerate - we see that on here a lot - and in this case two of us have made conflicting decisions. One, to put herself first, and the other to stop being told what to do. Or something else - that is just my interpretation of events. Neither is ‘wrong’. They are both doing what older women are advised to do, but in this case their choices have clashed.
A sees B as difficult. B sees A as difficult.

Both and neither of them are- they are both compensating for things that their different lives have thrown at them. My question was to ask how far we should all try to understand that.

As older people we don’t need to be treated as toddlers, do we?

theworriedwell

Doesn't sound much fun. I think I'd rather stay at home.

Just what I was thinking too.
I would just see the group far less often, citing being busy as an excuse.
Friends think about each other and the two dominant ones don’t think about the other two at all.Sounds like any real friendship has run its course.

If you really want to continue seeing them you should say something, it’s unlikely to change otherwise it’s put up or shut up isn’t it?

Doodledog

theworriedwell

Doesn't sound much fun. I think I'd rather stay at home.

No, as I keep saying (😀) I don’t want to back off. The group is a successful one on the whole. We enjoy one another’s company and all bring different things to the table. I like all of the others very much, and I think we all feel the same.

The problem is that as we age, many people make decisions about what we will tolerate - we see that on here a lot - and in this case two of us have made conflicting decisions. One, to put herself first, and the other to stop being told what to do. Or something else - that is just my interpretation of events. Neither is ‘wrong’. They are both doing what older women are advised to do, but in this case their choices have clashed.
A sees B as difficult. B sees A as difficult.

Both and neither of them are- they are both compensating for things that their different lives have thrown at them. My question was to ask how far we should all try to understand that.

As older people we don’t need to be treated as toddlers, do we?

You’re making a mountain out of a molehill Doodledog. Trying to find a rational reason for their behaviour, that’s exactly what they are. Two adults acting like toddlers.

It not a molehill to Doodledog it's a genuine difficult situation to live with. Social interaction can be fraught with discomfort. Some good suggestions made already.

I’d stay home too……..I couldn’t and wouldn't want to be involved in their overbearing, controlling “I know best” behaviour!