Group dynamics.

When A and B disagree eg about whether or not to stop for sommat to eat I'd speak up and say, "How about we take a vote?"

monami

How old are you all, old enough to speak up

What does age have to do with it?

A lot of people have misunderstood the point of the thread - my fault, as I wrote the OP. I'm not going to rehash it all by explaining, as I think I just wrote it to get it off my chest at the time, and wish I hadn't posted it now. As I said in the OP, the 'incidents' are trivial, really - certainly not worth making a stand about.

I do like all of them very much, and the last thing I want to do is cause ill-feeling between any of the members. I am more than capable of 'speaking up' if the situation warrants it, but on balance I think that making allowances for others' foibles is more sensible if we want to keep friends rather than take the moral high ground and be lonely.

Thanks for the replies. I don't mean to seem ungrateful.

I would be saying and doing[if already pre agreed with D], that C&D will go out with A.
Or C&D will do something with B[yes I know you 3 dont drive].
That would concentrate their minds pretty quick hopefully.
I wouldnt contintually tolerate their nonsense. Personally.

Could you and D get together as an easy-going twosome? If neither of you drive, perhaps explore train & bus routes to places of interest?
Might give A & B pause for thought!

How old are you all, old enough to speak up

Could you possibly just say that we (as a group) don't seem to be getting along very well anymore, too many arguments to make these meetings very enjoyable anymore as it seems people aren't willing to compromise and go along with other's suggestions. Then ask if there is any way around this?
Always very difficult with only one driver, perhaps she might be happier not to drive and arrange meetings more locally if that's possible.
I am usually the driver because of where I live and it does become very wearing especially when just taken for granted, the crunch for me was when one of the people I was driving to the theatre offered a lift home to a person who was a complete stranger to me and meant a diversion along roads I didn't know.

I think C&D need to organise a day out, by bus or train if neither drive, and ask A&B if they want to come.

If you are passive, not wanting to rock the boat or say anything about A and B’s behaviour, it will just carry on as it is or get worse. If you two get into the driving seat (not literally), your voices will start to be heard - and if they don’t want to go, the two of you will have a nice conflict free day out anyway?

It’s hard if not virtually impossible to get people to change, it’s nothing to do with treating friends as toddlers.These two friends are spoiling things for the group as a whole and making tense situations.
They must be thick skinned not to see it.Only a conversation with them both by the group will have a possibility of change.

Hats off to you Doodledog for sticking with this tricky situation.

Phew , sounds stressful . I’m in a few friendship groups and we do a WhatsApp’s poll for things to do or places to eat and stick to the plans .
Op have the two women always been dominant and pass ag or is this a new thing ?

As older women, are we being advised to put ourselves first, whatever the cost to anyone else? I guess it’s the way I was brought up, but I couldn’t do repeatedly do something that made someone else miserable. It’s just not my nature and imo, isn’t how I would treat my friends.

Spontaneity, whilst it can be fun, can also be hard for some people to deal with. I think that can also depend on who is being spontaneous! I have a friend who is very kind and sweet but her spontaneity can mean you end up in an undesirable situation - that has happened twice to me in the last year and I no longer go out with her in her car, I’ll take mine instead.

In your situation, Doodledog, as you want to keep going as a group, it sounds as though pre-planning could well be your answer. That, and asking not issuing ultimatums.

Aveline

It not a molehill to Doodledog it's a genuine difficult situation to live with. Social interaction can be fraught with discomfort. Some good suggestions made already.

Thanks, Aveline, and thanks for a lot of helpful suggestions, which I have taken on board.

I’m out now, as I don’t see my friends as toddlers, so that way of thinking is not helpful at all.

I’d stay home too……..I couldn’t and wouldn't want to be involved in their overbearing, controlling “I know best” behaviour!

It not a molehill to Doodledog it's a genuine difficult situation to live with. Social interaction can be fraught with discomfort. Some good suggestions made already.

Doodledog

theworriedwell

Doesn't sound much fun. I think I'd rather stay at home.

No, as I keep saying (😀) I don’t want to back off. The group is a successful one on the whole. We enjoy one another’s company and all bring different things to the table. I like all of the others very much, and I think we all feel the same.

The problem is that as we age, many people make decisions about what we will tolerate - we see that on here a lot - and in this case two of us have made conflicting decisions. One, to put herself first, and the other to stop being told what to do. Or something else - that is just my interpretation of events. Neither is ‘wrong’. They are both doing what older women are advised to do, but in this case their choices have clashed.
A sees B as difficult. B sees A as difficult.

Both and neither of them are- they are both compensating for things that their different lives have thrown at them. My question was to ask how far we should all try to understand that.

As older people we don’t need to be treated as toddlers, do we?

You’re making a mountain out of a molehill Doodledog. Trying to find a rational reason for their behaviour, that’s exactly what they are. Two adults acting like toddlers.

If you really want to continue seeing them you should say something, it’s unlikely to change otherwise it’s put up or shut up isn’t it?

theworriedwell

Doesn't sound much fun. I think I'd rather stay at home.

Just what I was thinking too.
I would just see the group far less often, citing being busy as an excuse.
Friends think about each other and the two dominant ones don’t think about the other two at all.Sounds like any real friendship has run its course.

theworriedwell

Doesn't sound much fun. I think I'd rather stay at home.

No, as I keep saying (😀) I don’t want to back off. The group is a successful one on the whole. We enjoy one another’s company and all bring different things to the table. I like all of the others very much, and I think we all feel the same.

The problem is that as we age, many people make decisions about what we will tolerate - we see that on here a lot - and in this case two of us have made conflicting decisions. One, to put herself first, and the other to stop being told what to do. Or something else - that is just my interpretation of events. Neither is ‘wrong’. They are both doing what older women are advised to do, but in this case their choices have clashed.
A sees B as difficult. B sees A as difficult.

Both and neither of them are- they are both compensating for things that their different lives have thrown at them. My question was to ask how far we should all try to understand that.

As older people we don’t need to be treated as toddlers, do we?

Doesn't sound much fun. I think I'd rather stay at home.

I was just about to post this when I saw your latest ... which amounts to the same thing.

Perhaps do what we do as a group of four friends who go for a long walk and pub lunch most weeks. We take it in strict turns to chose a circular route and take the lead for the day including locating a pub or cafe to have lunch. If there’s nothing en route, we take a sandwich and stop off for a drink at the end but it’s up to the leader for the day to do the scouting.

Three live reasonably close to one another. We all drive but I’m the outlier so I accept that I usually end up driving a bit further to the start point but that’s not a problem. Sometimes we will walk a route closer to me in which case they might car share but that isn’t always the case depending on what people are doing afterwards.

The key point is that all four of us take it in turns to choose.

Now thats a good one. "taking turns".

Thanks again for the suggestions. I don’t want to step back as I like the little group, (and I am sure that A and B like one another😀).

I had an idea - next time it happens I could say ‘It’s up to A, B or C, as they organised the day’, and try to set a precedent so that it’s not who’s driving, it’s the one who suggested the outing/booked the tickets who chooses. It can’t be me the first time, but my turn will come if it works.

Why not confront them and say how uncomfortable this makes you and your other friend. Too me, they sound very childish and you are making excuses for them for the sake of a group outing.

I like FGT's sentence if one is brave!

Doodledog you wrote "I do think that asking for a show of hands could work, or more of an agreement about what a day out will entail before we go. It’s a shame, as spontaneous changes are fun, but this tension is not."

My suggestion of having a little planning session therefore ie a few dates in diary with planned events? If one of the says "I dont see why we should have to bother" then I guess you would have to come out with something like,

" well we have been having disagreements on the trips and I find them upsetting, it would be really nice to set out with it all sorted"?

personally I'd find that easier than a vote, where you have to "out" yourself by being seen "whose side you take". Poor you, I hope there is a way forward.

I think that both your easy going friend and yourself need to have a chat and agree to be a bit more assertive in order to counter the two bossy women and perhaps rein them in. Try to speak up next time and when A won’t agree with B suggest an alternative or suggest that the friend who says she isn’t hungry that maybe she could come along anyway because service can be slow so she could be hungry by the time her food arrives or suggest she just orders something light with a drink. This might check her passive aggressiveness because you are considering her needs.
But sounds tiring and rather irritating.
Good luck 🤞