Trouble at the Vatican

Indeed Greatnan. I would love to be a fly on the wall

It's an unnatural way to live and things are bound to flare up.

Agreed!

A bunch of supposedly celibate men in long frocks, surrounded by untold wealth, protected by mediaeval soldiers (Swiss Guard), and largely isolated from the world.

It's weird and disgusting before any wrongdoing happens.

I don't see why it is disgusting, joan - we have just seen the Queen surrounded by flunkeys/soldiers etc in historical garb (medieval in the case of the Honourable Artillery Company at the Mansion House) and we have (most of us) loved the colour and pageantry. It may be odd - by your definition, but why must it be designated "disgusting"?

Did you know that although people and even newspapers talk about Vatican City as a state, it is not recognised as such by the United Nations. It has some sort of special status at the UN, but is not a state.

Re disgusting - the Queen does at least lead a 'normal' life in that she has a family. The unnatural life of the men in the Vatican, and the ultimate effects their supposed celibacy has on people, especially catholic children is what disgusts me. They cling on to these tenets of their religion no matter what, and the culture of the Vatican, IMO, perpetuates this. They just won't countenance change, no matter what the evidence is. Hence I'm disgusted.

Oh, and the fact of the untold wealth, locked up and not used, is also disgusting.

Joan I'm with you on that one. I seem to recall reading about some guy turning up at the Temple and throwing a big tantrum – and the tables – at the money changers.

Oh, they would not under any circumstances live the life that guy at the temple expected!

Here's a story i keep forgetting to read again, but really must.

In Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, Ivan Karamazov tells a fable of Christ's return to earth during the Spanish Inquisition. Unceremoniously thrown into jail, He is told by the Grand Inquisitor that men are not ready for the life of love and that meanwhile His presence can only hinder the business at hand. The saddened Christ takes his departure.

I think of this story when I read about the carry-on at the Vatican.

The supposed 'statehood' of The Vatican is a remnant of Mussolini's Fascist government's time.

I've nothing against Catholics, but I have no respect for the Vatican.

I agree feetle - nothing against catholics but as an institution it is horrible.

I agree JessM. I have nothing against beliefs. It's organised religion that I have a problem with. It's usually organised to bring power and wealth to those at the top and to control the ordinary believers! The Vatican does not appear to be answerable to anyone. It's completely ruled by a few very senior priests (all men).

I am a Catholic but I hate how the Church is run. The old men in charge have never led a normal life. Most went from Catholic education into Seminary then the priesthood. They have no understanding of the real world. I think a prime example of their misunderstanding of the real world shows in their attitude to AIDS in parts of Africa. Nuns run clinics for those with HIV and full blown AIDS. They see the illness at it first hand. Not just the adults who have caught it through unprotected sex but also the babies who are born with it. The nuns asked that the Vatican reconsider it's views on the use of condoms as so much suffering could be avoided by their use. The reply was that condoms were not acceptable and that the people should remain celebate instead. We all know this isn't going to happen but I think these old men believe that it could.

And it is indeed ruled, in a very autocratic way. Top down management and no messing about with consultation of representation.

@absentgrana : Have you thought about the reason for the money-changers being at the temple in Jerusalem?

The temple only accepted donations in local currency, so those who came from other provinces needed to change their money in order to contribute to the temple... It sounds as though kicking up a stink because they were there was pretty stupid, really...

I think the accounts of this event describe the Temple as having become something of a market place where cattle and sheep, probably also doves, were sold (presumably for sacrifice). No doubt the sellers made a profit and, as they wanted to be paid in the local currency, so did the money-changers. I think the stink was kicked up because trading and profit were not the intended purpose of the place.

I am a catholic, although I don't attend mass or follow the religion , I feel as a catholic child at a catholic school, we were threatened with purgatory or hell, I have my own beliefs now, I have my own thoughts on the behaviour of some priests, regarding children , my daughters weren't brought up with any religion , they can choose for themselves!