Another reason to not have a death penalty

Luckygirl3 On the side subject of religion that has been raised on this thread - the statement Christianity isn't terrifying is one I cannot get behind and would cite the Crusades, Northern Ireland, catholic guilt and the misery this has caused generations of people, retrograde hierarchies, evangelism and swamping other cultures with beliefs, the covering up of sexual abuse - I could go on.... Every religion is capable of being terrifying because it deals in fundamentals and is drawn towards fundamentalism. I am fully aware of the apparently benign brand of Christianity practised by my many friends, but that is not the whole story sadly.

Perhaps many evangelicals are zealots? Interesting explanation.

baptistnews.com/article/the-fantastical-world-of-the-new-evangelical-zealots/

Whitewavemark2

I don’t think so. The argument is about the type of punishment the perpetrators should receive.

Most countries in the western world do not have capital punishment for very good and sound reasons.

I think FGT2 might have a point... in the sense that there are those who espouse the DP because they (mistakenly) believe it is a deterrent. I don't know why this myth persists, but it does - I've certainly heard it repeated.

The moral argument surrounding the DP can be made by both those who know it's not a deterrent as well as those who mistakenly believe it is - either for or against.

The question is - how many of those in the first category would oppose the DP if they were able to be convinced that it didn't work as a deterrent?

It is not a simple procedure putting a living person to death. It requires excellent knowledge of drugs and of current state of health.

One of my dogs did not survive her euthanising injection but suffered unnecessarily because her veins were too collapsed to carry the injection. Needless to say I did not patronise that particular vet again, and subsequent dogs got sedation before the lethal injection.

That's awful Caleo . It happened with one of my mum's dogs who thankfully wasn't there to witness it but my brother was.

He'd had a heart attack which had caused his veins to collapse so as with yours, they were unable to carry the injection.

Yes, and also capital punishment brutalises those who carr.y it out

foxie48

Many Americans believe that the answer to gun crime is to own more guns rather than to reduce the number of guns and that the death penalty reduces the murder rate, they are wrong on both accounts but a society that can elect someone like Trump as president, twice, clearly has some very strange values. Thank goodness that I don't live there.

The reason why murders with guns are so rare over here is gun ownership is very heavily restricted and owning a firearm illegally carries a long prison sentence. Obviously killers can access knives quite easily, but our murder rate is far lower than America and has actually fallen in recent years. Also sentences for murder have increased significantly, with minimum sentences of 25 years becoming common.
I think someone who has committed a series of really brutal murders could think that by being executed and suddenly finding God before they're executed is a quick way out. Giving the murderer a whole life tariff and facing hostility and retribution from other prisoners is a much better deterrent.

Murder rate in the US last year was 0.059 per thousand and 0.009 per thousand in the UK. Clearly the death penalty is not much of a deterrent.

From the Telegraph just now:

“Christa Pike, the death-row inmate who survived a botched execution in Tennessee, is “conscious and speaking”.

Pike, 50, had been in a critical condition and was likely brain-damaged after being given two doses of pentobarbital on Sept 30.

In a statement, Pike’s lawyer said: “Against all odds, Christa Pike is conscious, speaking, and continues to receive critical medical care.

“Despite the severe damage she endured to her arms, she is still handcuffed and shackled to the bed. Her recovery is medically unprecedented. Her prognosis remains unclear but, at a minimum, we expect a long recovery.”

Witnesses described hearing her “snoring” and “moaning” more than two hours after the injection.

Pike apparently said: “My arm feels like it’s about to burst open,” according to Tori Gessner, a local TV news anchor who attended the botched execution.”

foxie48

Many Americans believe that the answer to gun crime is to own more guns rather than to reduce the number of guns and that the death penalty reduces the murder rate, they are wrong on both accounts but a society that can elect someone like Trump as president, twice, clearly has some very strange values. Thank goodness that I don't live there.

"A society who can elect someone as Trump"

Quote

Which percentage of American society? How many voted against?

I am so sorry foxie48 but it is much more complicated than reducing the number of guns. You see, if the laws require a reduction to gun ownership, then law-abiding citizens comply, which means they are out-numbered by criminals who own and use guns against the law. The death penalty is absolutely a zero detterent for murder. Everyone knows it. It is difficult for citizens to change laws. Murder is not a detterent to being murdered by the law officers, unfortunately.

Barbaric? Yes, probably.

That sounds now like state sanctioned torture.

Macaydia of course it's complicated, nowhere have I suggested that it's not. 2020 -2025 in the US there were 294 school shootings, it is normal practice now for schools to have armed guards on the door and to practice how to deal with gun carrying intruders. Most of these intruders are disgruntled students and they bring with them guns that are in the home including automatic weapons that are capable of mass shootings. After the Port Arthur massacre in 1996, Australia changed it's laws on gun ownership and offered a buy back scheme to citizens who owned guns, since then mass shootings have been pretty rare. The UK took similar measure after Dunblane whereas in the US it's estimated there are over 120 guns for every person ie more guns than people! Absolute craziness.

Christa Pike is awake and speaking, there's no further information really except that she is handcuffed and manacled whilst in intensive care. Why on earth would anyone handcuff and manacle someone who is in intensive care, let alone when someone is unconscious? I cannot understand the cruelty and inhumane treatment of this woman. She committed a dreadful murder and certainly deserves to be punished but like this? It's even possible that once she is well enough they will try to execute her again!

I just read that, Foxie, and a patient in intensive care being handcuffed and manacled after a botched execution is primitive.

It's truly disgusting. Trump has just approved a firing squad execution, the first in 60 years, for the man convicted of shooting 13 soldiers at Fort Hood in 2009. The man was shot and left paralysed but was sentenced to death in 2013. It just beggars belief!

foxie48

Christa Pike is awake and speaking, there's no further information really except that she is handcuffed and manacled whilst in intensive care. Why on earth would anyone handcuff and manacle someone who is in intensive care, let alone when someone is unconscious? I cannot understand the cruelty and inhumane treatment of this woman. She committed a dreadful murder and certainly deserves to be punished but like this? It's even possible that once she is well enough they will try to execute her again!

I’ve read her “story”.

Nothing, literally nothing excuses the planned torture and murder of a fellow teen.

But Pike was failed by the system from the moment she was conceived by two alcoholic parents, born with fetal alcohol syndrome then brought up in the most cruel and awful manner.

I won’t go into details, it’s online for anyone who wishes to read it.

She’s clearly very mentally unstable and damaged.

She’s already served 30 years on death row.

Surely the humane thing now is to let her live out a life term in a secure mental health unit?

I know that won’t bring her poor victim back.

She had been worried about being executed with a lethal injection and had asked the court via her lawyers to consider a firing squad or hanging instead.

What Pike did does neither need reiterating or condemning - that should be taken as read, but was completely failed by the state at every single stage of her life from birth to death.

Surely this must put her beyond the law, and the state should now do what is right and give her the care and treatment she should have had as of right from birth.

There are children in this country, who have had a similar start to Pike, and who are extremely violent from a very young age, who will never recover from their terrible and indescribable experiences and make decent adults, and who will always be a real risk to society. Whose fault is it? Certainly not the children’s. I put Pike in the same category.

I would think the sentence will be commuted to life without parole as I can't see anyone supporting any further attempt to execute her.

I tend to agree with your Smileless.

I certainly hope there's not going to be another attempt at putting her to death although I gather this method will still be used on someone else. This awful outcome just reinforces my opposition to the death penalty. I know I find the crimes they've committed horrific but I equally find the state putting people to death utterly cold blooded and wrong somehow.

Smileless2012

I would think the sentence will be commuted to life without parole as I can't see anyone supporting any further attempt to execute her.

I agree with this.

Smileless2012

I would think the sentence will be commuted to life without parole as I can't see anyone supporting any further attempt to execute her.

I read on the BBC website, I think, that "no decision had yet been taken" regarding her sentence.

Without wanting to minimise the horror of her crime - the idea that she might be carefully nursed back to 'health' and then 're-executed' is frankly horrific. But, it wouldn't surprise me.

Pike's boyfriend, Shipp was more fortunate; though tried as an adult, he couldn't be sentenced as one and was given 'life' - with eligibility for parole... which is now, but he's been denied it. If Pike had been a year younger, she probably would not have been sentenced to death.

Though I hesitate to make what some might consider to be 'excuses' for a cold-blooded killing - I wonder if those who neglected, abused and raped the young Pike ever faced any consequences?

Not only was Pike subjected to appalling cruelty and neglect she was born with AFSD.

Its truly horrifying. Pike was abused all her life, did a dreadful thing. But the cruelty of her treatment by that State is sickening. No words can describe their system. It’s like a torture chamber, legalised with people viewing a spectacle. Sick.