Another appalling attack

Erm..and?

sixandahalf

" Mental health services" What a joke. You are on your own.

He was in supported housing though, so he was obviously somebody with a complex history aand a violent past, and should have been under closer supervision than the average person with mental health issues. That’s what I was alluding to when I said that investigation into those aspects is important

Iam64

‘Understanding the context ‘ of 7 October feels horrifically similar to blame attached to Jewish people fleeing their homes in the face of pogroms. We still hear offensive comments now to explain the ‘context of anti semitism’ , those tropes about the Jews controlling the media, the banks etc
It’s as long as history and getting worse. Of course a more recent one is the belief (misbelief) that “the Jews” were responsible for 9/11. I’ve heard this on a number of occasions from young Muslim men

I disagree with you. Understanding any history means understanding context. Sometimes that context leads to an understanding we don't like, but history should never be airbrushed. Rewriting history is one of the first things authoritarian regimes do. History itself isn't judgmental, which most people interpreting it are.

Understanding why many Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims in the wider world hate Jews, Israel or Zionism doesn't justify the actions of 7 October.

Indeed, thank you Oreo. Holocaust denial seems particularly difficult to justify, as there is evidence available - one of my daughters visited Aushwitz when she was travelling, and I took my family to visit Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam.
WW2 is on the curriculum in the last year of primary school ( our children read " When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit")
and is in every secondary school history programme of study, I think.
The teachers of any young people with such views will be utterly horrified.

Caleo

Would it not be more sensible for religious people of all faiths to stop wearing ostentatiously religious clothing.

Why go about in public wearing uniforms that declare which side one is on. Religions are divisive enough without flaunting the differences.

Why? Why should anyone “disguise” their faith?

Just to add my tuppence to a very serious discussion, yes, the Jewish communities should absolutely be able to dress how they like, attend their synagogues when they wish and go about their daily lives without fear.

In terms of the holocaust, beside those total ignorant people who simply wish to deny it existed or bury it, it happened!

Whilst the Jewish communities were far far more greatly targeted and killed, it must be remembered 500,000 non-jews were also murdered in the concentration camps, none of those murdered, including Jews, fitted into Hitler’s new world.

Putting aside the morality of it, hiding religion won't work, I know for example that the woman across the road is a methodist, I know the woman who runs the playgroup is a Catholic, etc.
People shouldn't and can't hide theor religion.

No, not to hide.

What a sad, limited world that would be, banned self expression, banned from the chance to know, understand, and both being able to both appreciate and critique difference.

Chocolatelovinggran

Indeed, thank you Oreo. Holocaust denial seems particularly difficult to justify, as there is evidence available - one of my daughters visited Aushwitz when she was travelling, and I took my family to visit Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam.
WW2 is on the curriculum in the last year of primary school ( our children read " When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit")
and is in every secondary school history programme of study, I think.
The teachers of any young people with such views will be utterly horrified.

I agree, it's very helpful to visit these sites where tragedies took place, and to reflect. The Holocaust Museum in Amsterdam is interesting too.

Yes, the Holocaust can be touched on at KS2 Year 6, but is not legally mandatory in the national curriculum until KS3 Year 9 I think at secondary school. I taught 10 - 11 year olds until covid hit, and always consulted parents as to their wishes. Most of the time, I emphasised how prejudice and discrimination can cause untold misery, and I related this to the school's values of kindness and diversity.
Important lessons in a historical sense.

Just to add my tuppence to a very serious discussion
And nice to read some very thought-provoking comments on this thread, in the main, Cossy. Far better than the fighting and sometimes sneering at each other, or we end up no better than those seeking to divide.

understanding why many Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims in the wider world hate Jews, Israel, Zionism doesn’t justify the actions of 7 0ctober

I’m not suggesting history is irrelevant. Anti semitism led to the pogroms, the Holocaust and the state of Israel.

Hatred is such a dangerous emotion, especially when applied to “Jews” as in your example of people to hate

MartavTaurus

Chocolatelovinggran

Indeed, thank you Oreo. Holocaust denial seems particularly difficult to justify, as there is evidence available - one of my daughters visited Aushwitz when she was travelling, and I took my family to visit Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam.
WW2 is on the curriculum in the last year of primary school ( our children read " When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit")
and is in every secondary school history programme of study, I think.
The teachers of any young people with such views will be utterly horrified.

I agree, it's very helpful to visit these sites where tragedies took place, and to reflect. The Holocaust Museum in Amsterdam is interesting too.

Yes, the Holocaust can be touched on at KS2 Year 6, but is not legally mandatory in the national curriculum until KS3 Year 9 I think at secondary school. I taught 10 - 11 year olds until covid hit, and always consulted parents as to their wishes. Most of the time, I emphasised how prejudice and discrimination can cause untold misery, and I related this to the school's values of kindness and diversity.
Important lessons in a historical sense.

"I emphasised how prejudice and discrimination can cause untold misery"

Some historians, including Simon Schama dislike the way the Holocaust is taught as a way of emphasising prejudice and discrimination ie man's inhumanity to man. They claim that the Holocaust couldn't have happened to any other group of people - that it is exclusively a Jewish phenomenon (more accurately an anti-Jewish phenomenon).

Personally, I disagree with him. Nevertheless, the Holocaust was exceptional due to the scale of it and the fact that the Nazis weren't an uneducated tribe. The gas chambers weren't the result of tribal, testesterone-fuelled, nationalistic louts. I do agree with him that anti-semitism isn't just a form of racism. I can't put my finger on what it is because I don't understand it. I can actually understand why Palestinians hate Israelis - they took their land - but I just can't understand historic anti-semitism, which hasn't gone away, however much people try to pin all the blame on the current global wave of attacks on Gaza.

Iam64

*understanding why many Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims in the wider world hate Jews, Israel, Zionism doesn’t justify the actions of 7 0ctober *

I’m not suggesting history is irrelevant. Anti semitism led to the pogroms, the Holocaust and the state of Israel.

Hatred is such a dangerous emotion, especially when applied to “Jews” as in your example of people to hate

I'm not disagreeing with you and I most certainly don't condone what happened on 7 October.

However, somebody was accused of using context as justification. I don't agree with that. The context doesn't justify/excuse what happened, but it explains it.

We need explanations, if there is ever to be any reconciliation. The public doesn't often get to hear about the initiatives there already are for people to understand each other better. I seriously wonder if people like Ben-Gvir and Daniella Weiss have ever spent even a few seconds putting themselves of Palestinians who have had their land taken, family members murdered and their history wiped out. Fortunately, not everybody is like them or the Hamas terrorists responsible for the 7 October attacks.

People need to listen to both sides, not cherry pick arguments to suit their own agenda.

MartavTaurus

^Just to add my tuppence to a very serious discussion^
And nice to read some very thought-provoking comments on this thread, in the main, Cossy. Far better than the fighting and sometimes sneering at each other, or we end up no better than those seeking to divide.

Long may it last!

Casdon

sixandahalf

" Mental health services" What a joke. You are on your own.

He was in supported housing though, so he was obviously somebody with a complex history aand a violent past, and should have been under closer supervision than the average person with mental health issues. That’s what I was alluding to when I said that investigation into those aspects is important

Of course. There is so little support and its spread far too thin.
Then people are ( rightly) horrified when something happens.

Services stretched to breaking point. Actually non existent , not stretched.

Wyllow3

Caleo

HummusAndToast

I would just like to chime in and remind everyone that the entire Israeli-Palestine conflict began precisely on October 7th, when Hamas unprovokedly attacked poor innocent Israel for no good reason whatsoever.

Carry on.

Hamas had reason but insufficient reason for its violent reprisal. West Bank settlers had continuously stolen land and water supplies from Palestinian neighbours , ever since Israel was established.

HummusAndToast....

If you had read previous threads which included discussing the history of the conflict in the Palestine area, ie the roots of what happened in October 7th:

Or even just checked online as to the history of "who should be able to live there and how" - it goes back to before Balfour on November 2, 1917, who as part of a WW1 deal promised people a Jewish Homeland in the area in a declaration letter. Which happened in 1948.

The conflict continued through the 1930's between Jewish people in the region and the Palestinian peoples as refugees continued to pour in: both sides had terrorist groups the founding of the Israeli State - (but not an equivalent Palestinian one to give necessary status and draw sufficient boundaries)

The displacement of many Palestinians in the Al-Nakba which meant during 1947–1949 period, an estimated 700,000 to 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes or fled out of fear. Over 500 Palestinian villages and towns were destroyed or depopulated.

A significant moment in time was the June 1967 Six-Day War, a pivotal struggle over land, security, and existence, resulting in Israel occupying the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai, and Golan Heights. Since then the key issue has been Israeli expansionism.

The conflict has always been there. This is not to condone any actions taken but it most certainly didn't "begin" on that October day,

and both sides have done some dreadful things

The current state for the people in Gaza is such that people living in tents stay awake all night watching their children because of the rats actually biting them, the disease, lack of santitation, opportunities to make a living and so on.

The history is devastating: heart wrenching, for of course the holocaust was perhaps the most horrifying event in 20th century history and Jewish people had a need and right for a homeland, but the cost?

Extremists on both sides want to occupy the whole of the area "just for them" and the current Israeli regime is acting on this premise in the West Bank as well as Gaza.

By all means continue to cry out about October 7th: but understand the context .

This is so right and answers the incorrect claim that the Israeli/Palestine conflict ‘began precisely’ on 7 October . Such wilful ignorance should be called out.

love0c

Wyllow3 'By all means continue to cry'!!!!!????? what an absolutely disgusting dreadful comment.

No it is not.

twaddle - thanks for discussing . We have so much common belief and understanding. If only the key people involved could try to accept the past can’t be changed, that their recollections may differ and that the only way to peace is acknowledging that and finding a way to peace

Cossy

Just to add my tuppence to a very serious discussion, yes, the Jewish communities should absolutely be able to dress how they like, attend their synagogues when they wish and go about their daily lives without fear.

In terms of the holocaust, beside those total ignorant people who simply wish to deny it existed or bury it, it happened!

Whilst the Jewish communities were far far more greatly targeted and killed, it must be remembered 500,000 non-jews were also murdered in the concentration camps, none of those murdered, including Jews, fitted into Hitler’s new world.

There were actually almost 12 million people killed in the Holocaust. 6m Jews plus many Polish non-jews, Roma, disabled people, Soviet prisoners of war and people of colour. I sincerely apologise if I've omitted any other groups of people.

Silvergirl

Cossy

Just to add my tuppence to a very serious discussion, yes, the Jewish communities should absolutely be able to dress how they like, attend their synagogues when they wish and go about their daily lives without fear.

In terms of the holocaust, beside those total ignorant people who simply wish to deny it existed or bury it, it happened!

Whilst the Jewish communities were far far more greatly targeted and killed, it must be remembered 500,000 non-jews were also murdered in the concentration camps, none of those murdered, including Jews, fitted into Hitler’s new world.

There were actually almost 12 million people killed in the Holocaust. 6m Jews plus many Polish non-jews, Roma, disabled people, Soviet prisoners of war and people of colour. I sincerely apologise if I've omitted any other groups of people.

Yes, we all know this Silvergirl.

The thread title is a bit of a clue. It's about an appalling attack on members of the Jewish community here in the UK.

Not about other groups that may have been victimised at some time.

Why can't you apologists start your own threads if you're so concerned about other groups, other ethnicities, other times, other places.

You all seem intent to set out to diminish the original sentiment.

As you do every time a thread about attacks on Jews is posted.

Who are "all" these people?

Actually I was just correcting an error of 500,000 being non Jews. I had no agenda other than that and I am very hurt at your reply.

twaddle

Who are "all" these people?

What, "all" these people who don't know that other groups perished at the hands of the Nazis?

Or "all" these people who seem to be intent on diminishing the original sentiment?

If you mean the former, well I apologise, I mistakenly thought most people knew that the Nazis targeted other groups. Maybe not.

If the latter, well, I seriously don't have the time to go back through pages of posts and pick them all out. Too many to mention.

As you do every time a thread about attacks on Jews is posted

Really? Where?

Where? On this site