Another appalling attack

TerriBull

Well that's the French way, particularly in schools, no visible signs of religious symbolism. I'm not sure that's taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut and I think that approach would stir up even greater discontent, it's such a blanket approach to cultural identity , Sikhs and turbans for example, that are a crucial part of their beliefs.

I don't recommend that it be a crime to wear ostentatious religious apparel. In fact, I believe that in line with good modern education of the younger generations , the influence of intransigent elders will fade away.

Iam64

Why should religious people be expected to hide their faith.. isn’t the point that we need to find better ways to prevent prejudice and bigotry. And improve mental health services

Wearing ordinary everyday clothing is not "hiding your faith".

It'd bad taste to dress ostentatiously for any reason at all, including political beliefs, religious beliefs, social class, display of wealth, or overt display of sexual attractions.

Franbern

Seems strange how the press and tv ignored the fact that this person actually attacked THREE people (not just the two reported). The first victim was a Muslim, so obviously did not fit the scenario of terrorist anti-semitism that has been headlines.

It does appear that these attacks are the result of a mental health issue and perhaps instead of that money going to policing, it should go to the local mental health team to try to prevent further problems.

I didn't even know that, Franbern. that the first person was a Muslim.
Frankly it's clear we need resources for both adequate policing and most definitely in Mental Health..

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

He wasn’t just a Muslim walking along the street, he was well known to the attacker, who is also Muslim.
It doesn’t change a thing.
As for hiding any type of religious clothing, let’s not go down that route.
Christians wearing a cross? Nuns ? As well as Muslim women wearing a hijab.
Let’s get this present high level amount of antisemitism dealt with!

I sometimes think it can be the young who have the more intransigent views. From what I read, when the Pakistani communities first settled here back in the '70s, they worked hard in carpet factories and didn't hold the extreme and often divisive views that would set them apart from their younger people. Acts of terrorism have generally been committed by young individuals. If, as Oreo has stated, quite a significant number of the younger generation per se, think the Holocaust didn't happen, then the "good" modern education has not only failed them but can only be as good as whoever is instructing them and hopefully doing it in such a way without any personal bias.

Caleo

HummusAndToast

I would just like to chime in and remind everyone that the entire Israeli-Palestine conflict began precisely on October 7th, when Hamas unprovokedly attacked poor innocent Israel for no good reason whatsoever.

Carry on.

Hamas had reason but insufficient reason for its violent reprisal. West Bank settlers had continuously stolen land and water supplies from Palestinian neighbours , ever since Israel was established.

HummusAndToast....

If you had read previous threads which included discussing the history of the conflict in the Palestine area, ie the roots of what happened in October 7th:

Or even just checked online as to the history of "who should be able to live there and how" - it goes back to before Balfour on November 2, 1917, who as part of a WW1 deal promised people a Jewish Homeland in the area in a declaration letter. Which happened in 1948.

The conflict continued through the 1930's between Jewish people in the region and the Palestinian peoples as refugees continued to pour in: both sides had terrorist groups the founding of the Israeli State - (but not an equivalent Palestinian one to give necessary status and draw sufficient boundaries)

The displacement of many Palestinians in the Al-Nakba which meant during 1947–1949 period, an estimated 700,000 to 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes or fled out of fear. Over 500 Palestinian villages and towns were destroyed or depopulated.

A significant moment in time was the June 1967 Six-Day War, a pivotal struggle over land, security, and existence, resulting in Israel occupying the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai, and Golan Heights. Since then the key issue has been Israeli expansionism.

The conflict has always been there. This is not to condone any actions taken but it most certainly didn't "begin" on that October day,

and both sides have done some dreadful things

The current state for the people in Gaza is such that people living in tents stay awake all night watching their children because of the rats actually biting them, the disease, lack of santitation, opportunities to make a living and so on.

The history is devastating: heart wrenching, for of course the holocaust was perhaps the most horrifying event in 20th century history and Jewish people had a need and right for a homeland, but the cost?

Extremists on both sides want to occupy the whole of the area "just for them" and the current Israeli regime is acting on this premise in the West Bank as well as Gaza.

By all means continue to cry out about October 7th: but understand the context .

The progressives will be the end of us.

Oreo

A good start would be banning any hate marches by any group.

On R4 last night there was a discussion on the upcoming protests in London and its management. Including interviews with Jewish people who both think they should be banned, and those who join the protests because although they support the existence of an Israeli State wholeheartedly, they do not agree with what the current regime is doing. Also interview with the police.

The police cannot ban any lawful protest it is a precious right we hold as citizens in the UK, and the parlous state of people in Gaza or those who are using homes and land on the West Bank needs bringing to people's attention, which has been swept away by Trumps actions in Iran and of course actions Netanyahu has taken in Lebanon.

The police are discussing whether the protests should be contained (ie static, not marching) and I think all decent people agree including the Jewish contingent on the march of course, should and will cull any hate banners or chanting of same.

That's the way ahead, not removing hard fought for democratic rights to protest.

Wyllow3 'By all means continue to cry'!!!!!????? what an absolutely disgusting dreadful comment.

Wyllow3 'understand the context'???? it is like you are giving justification!!!!???? I am sickened by your comment!

I am not justifying.
I am explaining a context necessary to understand all the particular horrors a long the way in a long, long, history.

As for the meaning of that particular phrase, I could equally have said but used a common place term to express it.

"By all means continue to highlight, remind us about October 7th.

I have not problem with being reminded off it, but I do find that ignoring the history and context of that day very puzzling, it was not an isolated incident.

Why do people have trouble with looking at the context?

love0c

Wyllow3 'understand the context'???? it is like you are giving justification!!!!???? I am sickened by your comment!

Understanding the context would mean not making claims such as the conflict starting with the Hamas attack, which is just ludicrous. Understanding the context does not mean justifying what happened on 7 October.

Explaining and justifying are not the same thing.

We don’t….you remind us of it often enough.
It’s used tho, by many who seek to minimise the event of October 7th, which wasn’t the usual missiles/ car bombs/ cafe bombs by Palestinian activists and hamas members, but a wholesale slaughter of mainly sleeping Israelis who were unarmed.Over a thousand people, think of that! An unprovoked murderous sickening spree.Add to that the 200 hostages who were mainly murdered later.

love0c

Wyllow3 'understand the context'???? it is like you are giving justification!!!!???? I am sickened by your comment!

Well used to reading similar stuff online Love0c that sort of thing is always presented as an explanation/ justification.

Actually the Police can ban marches and gatherings under certain circumstances.

Galaxy

The progressives will be the end of us.

I fear we are well down that road already.🤬

Golders Green seemed a very safe space when my daughter lived there years ago whilst working in London, so I am saddened to hear how unsafe it has become.
Oreo, do you have data on the percentage of young people who are Holocaust deniers?
I am aware of, and astonished by, the existence of such people, but most seem older folk, with an agenda of their own.
My understanding is that all pupils learn about the Holocaust: it is part of the history curriculum in year 6, and is revisited in secondary school.

Understand the context is
patronising
belittles other people and situations
Assumes people are idiots
Assumes people forget
reeks of, others are wrong.
reeks of "two wrongs do indeed make a right".

‘Understanding the context ‘ of 7 October feels horrifically similar to blame attached to Jewish people fleeing their homes in the face of pogroms. We still hear offensive comments now to explain the ‘context of anti semitism’ , those tropes about the Jews controlling the media, the banks etc
It’s as long as history and getting worse. Of course a more recent one is the belief (misbelief) that “the Jews” were responsible for 9/11. I’ve heard this on a number of occasions from young Muslim men

Chocolatelovinggran

Golders Green seemed a very safe space when my daughter lived there years ago whilst working in London, so I am saddened to hear how unsafe it has become.
Oreo, do you have data on the percentage of young people who are Holocaust deniers?
I am aware of, and astonished by, the existence of such people, but most seem older folk, with an agenda of their own.
My understanding is that all pupils learn about the Holocaust: it is part of the history curriculum in year 6, and is revisited in secondary school.

No, just read it on the online BBC news this morning, will try and find out more about the survey if I can.

I would never subscribe to that: it lies clearly the hands of terrorists. Nor any of those tropes. (as surely you know, Iam, goodness me, I have explained my family history of supporting refugees post WW2 and fighting in Cable Street times enough, never mind friendships of my parents and at uni where I knew Julia Neuberger with great love and respect as she was a powerful force at 20!)

Yes, the history of anti semitism is centuries old, and anti-semitic tropes from many cultures including our own of course.

But to understand current events one does have to trace back at least to the formation of the Israeli State and the conflicting and troubled state the area was in at the time when we Brits were in power.

The significance of history is important of course. As the Good Friday Agreement shows, all sides need to want peace and be prepared to put history less centre stage and the present and future at its heart

Oreo

Chocolatelovinggran

Golders Green seemed a very safe space when my daughter lived there years ago whilst working in London, so I am saddened to hear how unsafe it has become.
Oreo, do you have data on the percentage of young people who are Holocaust deniers?
I am aware of, and astonished by, the existence of such people, but most seem older folk, with an agenda of their own.
My understanding is that all pupils learn about the Holocaust: it is part of the history curriculum in year 6, and is revisited in secondary school.

No, just read it on the online BBC news this morning, will try and find out more about the survey if I can.

Having scoured the online news sources there’s nothing to say which poll this figure comes from, it was said in the interview with Mark Rowley in today’s papers.
Other polls conducted in the UK which you can google, even if it’s just the AI overview are just too depressing on this subject to read, the percentages of people thinking the Holocaust is a myth or total exaggeration ☹️

Corbyn parents took part in Cable street riots