Let’s get real about migration

escaped Are you totally unaware that asylum seekers from places such as Iran can't get visas? Some of those arriving now were involved in the protests against the regime a couple of years ago (in protest against the treatment of women). If they were to put their heads above the parapet, they'd probably find themselves punched off a high building.Eritreans are only ever given passports in exceptional circumstances. They cannot do what you did. You are denying them the privilege you once had.

I see no argument. If we're going to let them in, then let them work. Give them visas, there's plenty of jobs. Once they're here, far better to let them try and support themselves.

less hanging around on street corners terrifying the fearful natives.
Who said that? Sounds a bit emotive.

What I'm really saying, growstuff is that there isn't enough money in the economy because the government won't spend enough to properly support the state services which everyone needs (and the state itself needs for a healthy, well educated populace to live in a secure environment and to access the law if needed). Additionally, what money it does put into the economy doesn't so much 'trickle' as gushes upwards to the wealthy, leaving less and less to serve the needs of everyone else.

There's no problem with trade, per se, but government doesn't seem to realise that there is a symbiotic relationship between the private and the public sector in that the private sector provides all the goods and services needed by the public sector. Without those goods and services the public sector couldn't exist because the state doesn't provide any of them.

Conversely, when the state withholds money the private sector suffers. When Osborne imposed his entirely unnecessary punishment beating on the hated state sector in the form of 'austerity' the private sector suffered badly as well because it no longer had contracts to supply goods and services to the public sector. My DH worked for such a firm, he was made redundant and other staff were laid off as the firm had less work coming in and could no longer afford to pay them. (DH didn't mind as he was nearing the end of his working life anyway but what of the younger employees?)

GDP is based on economic activity, not on the amount of money in the economy; £100 circulating can produce £2 or £300s worth of transactions. If the money isn't there, it can't circulate.

I, of course, absolutely agree with your point about immigrants working and contributing.

GDP is based on economic activity, not on the amount of money in the economy; £100 circulating can produce £2 or £300s worth of transactions. If the money isn't there, it can't circulate.

That's the bit I was trying to explain in my clumsy way. The point I was trying to make is that more people in a country doesn't mean that they have a smaller share of a finite pie (unless the government chooses). If we suddenly only had a 1000 people in the UK, the survivors wouldn't become multi-billionaires overnight because there would be far fewer trading transactions.

A bigger population doesn't mean that people have less because there are other factors in play.

Mollygo

Before I go hunting for that, maybe you’d like to identify how many people are using food banks, finding it hard to get homes, hospital appointments etc. before adding any more people to the island.

A significant number are students or are working.

Like you and many others we have immigrants living quite close by,

We do have people who are not immigrants, living next door, paying tax and NI. but I can’t match your next door neighbours claim.

We also have endless foreign uni students, being a university city, and friends and family members who are uni students, paying vast amounts for accommodation and tuition.

The concern is not over those who do pay, but over those who don’t and who continue to arrive in their thousands, for whatever reason.
We already have a society in which for some, benefits are the new wages.

When you say that the concern is not over those who do pay, but over those who don’t, is that really what you think Mollygo? If it is, I don’t think you can say that you don’t like the changing society of the UK, or complain about the lack of housing or services, because when migration exceeds emigration, society will keep on changing, and pressures on the UK infrastructure will not ease.

A bigger population doesn't mean that people have less because there are other factors in play.

Well, there is another factor at play, isn't there? The government won't put enough money into the economy. That will inevitably mean more people have less. In fact, current population already has less.

I'm puzzled. I thought you might agree with me 🤔

Growstuff, interesting to see you assigning your interpretation of what you think I am saying.
Do keep on.

I don't think the newcomers want to hang around on street corners. Many of them want to work in reputable jobs. As people seeking asylum they are not permitted to do so.

Some people seem wilful in their wish to ignore this fact.

As I said previously many other countries have a far better way of " fast tracking" people.

Still waiting for an apology re misinformation on this subject.

friendlygingercat

Mass immigration did not begin post Brexit. Its a post WWII phomenon. I dont ever recall the referendum where I was asked to vote for or against a multi cultural society. My country was changed, without my knowledge or consent. into something I do not recognise.

I don’t recognise it either. There’s so much discussion about legal and illegal migration. But it’s really about numbers. This small country simply cannot keep absorbing more and more people. I don’t want to hear about how many more people other European countries are taking in. It’s MY country I care most about. This level of immigration is out of control.

Skydancer

friendlygingercat

Mass immigration did not begin post Brexit. Its a post WWII phomenon. I dont ever recall the referendum where I was asked to vote for or against a multi cultural society. My country was changed, without my knowledge or consent. into something I do not recognise.

I don’t recognise it either. There’s so much discussion about legal and illegal migration. But it’s really about numbers. This small country simply cannot keep absorbing more and more people. I don’t want to hear about how many more people other European countries are taking in. It’s MY country I care most about. This level of immigration is out of control.

Well said Skydancer.

A significant percentage of the people I meet in my volunteering at a food bank have issues around mental health or substance abuse.
I'm not sure that more/ fewer people would change this.

Skydancer

friendlygingercat

Mass immigration did not begin post Brexit. Its a post WWII phomenon. I dont ever recall the referendum where I was asked to vote for or against a multi cultural society. My country was changed, without my knowledge or consent. into something I do not recognise.

I don’t recognise it either. There’s so much discussion about legal and illegal migration. But it’s really about numbers. This small country simply cannot keep absorbing more and more people. I don’t want to hear about how many more people other European countries are taking in. It’s MY country I care most about. This level of immigration is out of control.

If you look at the ‘This is totally unprecedented’ graph attached to my original post, you will see that there has been a very steady rise in the number of migrants over the last 125 years, it’s not a post WW2 phenomenon at all. Numbers have increased significantly post Brexit, but are now reducing again.

What I’d love to hear is what people think the solutions to reduce migration are, bearing in mind that the vast majority of migrants come legally, to work in our shortage areas.

Firstly I don’t agree with migrants being trained as, say, doctors or nurses in their own countries and then coming here thus depriving their own countries of their skills.
I also believe in overseas aid from wealthy countries such as the UK to help people stay where they belong with education and jobs. After all, people only try to come here because there are so few jobs and opportunities in their own countries. The world’s wealth should be more fairly distributed.

Firstly I don’t agree with migrants being trained as, say, doctors or nurses in their own countries and then coming here thus depriving their own countries of their skills.

They may want to, just as our own doctors and nurses emigrate.

However, I do agree that poaching qualified medical staff from countries which desperately need them is wrong. It's big business, apparently.