Is the UK now on a "war footing"?

Allira

^My erstwhile brother sorta voluntarily went into the Armed Forces at one point - but it was "sorta" voluntary - because he became a driver in one of them and being a driver was about all he was capable of doing (ie down to having a very low IQ).^

I'm not sure that people with very low IQs would get into the Forces.

Your views of the Armed Forces are rather different to those of most service personnel, I would imagine.

I grinned at one point - at reading that is true for the American armed forces. Apparently they do have a minimum IQ level and won't take anyone below that. They also have a maximum IQ level and won't take anyone above that one. The British armed forces don't have a restriction at either end....

My brother is 2 points below minimum level as I recall - and so he wouldnt have got in there (ie the Americans want people to be able to understand instructions). I can't remember what the American maximum is - other than my father would have been kicked straight out at the outset and I'd also not have gotten in (because - at the other end - we'd understand instructions alright - and be questioning them LOL). Errr....yep....my father told the tale of how a high-up came along to give a talk on the procedure to get promotion and up went my fathers hand at the end of the talk with "Please sah....I've done what you said sah and followed that procedure 3 times now - and I've still not got my promotion". Funnily enough he got given it at that point....

Thank you Greyduster for that "view from the inside".
The choices around who gets in a one year "gap" scheme will have to be made very carefully, but one of its purposes is to get young people into regular hours and discipline - and to have a pool of possible candidates to move into the army and sort out the "suitable" - and can the Territorial Army be useful here.

“There is no finer training. Even front line troops usually have a second string to their bow.”

Career service personally often have problems fitting in with civilian life, for their whole adult life has be spent under orders. Everything else takes second place, including family, they expect to obey orders and everyone beneath them to do likewise, everything is provided they do not have to consider the cost of whatever they are using.

I have 2 brothers in law one a pilot has thrived and is still flying, the other was army and has always struggled to settle, those at the “fighting” end of the army probably have most problems.

Oh dear. All those capitals Chazz01. The modern equivalent of a "green ink" letter to a newspaper.

I have to take issue with you there, David49. DH was a soldier for twenty two years, the end of his Army service. He secured a civilian managerial role as soon as he left and had no difficulty securing other jobs subsequently. We have many friends who did the same. My DS was in the RAF for twenty two years and only left when they civilianised his trade. He also secured a managerial job within a couple of months of leaving and has progressed within the same large company. They got on because they are intelligent adaptable people. Civilian employers value service skills and service personnel highly because of their commitment, intuition and adaptability.

I had forgotten momentarily that DH’s brother also came out of the RAF after twenty two years and went straight into a senior technical role with British Aerospace in Wales. He never had problems adapting.

everything is provided they do not have to consider the cost of whatever they are using

David49. Can I also, respectfully, ask you what you meant by this?

I really dot know a lot about this - there are so few representations of army and post army life on TV in the UK

I've a bit of a suspicion that we may be going by US representations/publicity of "veterans on the streets"?

and a quick check of figures show a much higher % in the US.

This seems to indicate a difference in either the training or the leaving preparations?

I have to take issue with you there, David49

Me too.

I think David49 likes playing Devil's Advocate!

CariadAgain

Allira

My erstwhile brother sorta voluntarily went into the Armed Forces at one point - but it was "sorta" voluntary - because he became a driver in one of them and being a driver was about all he was capable of doing (ie down to having a very low IQ).

I'm not sure that people with very low IQs would get into the Forces.

Your views of the Armed Forces are rather different to those of most service personnel, I would imagine.

I grinned at one point - at reading that is true for the American armed forces. Apparently they do have a minimum IQ level and won't take anyone below that. They also have a maximum IQ level and won't take anyone above that one. The British armed forces don't have a restriction at either end....

My brother is 2 points below minimum level as I recall - and so he wouldnt have got in there (ie the Americans want people to be able to understand instructions). I can't remember what the American maximum is - other than my father would have been kicked straight out at the outset and I'd also not have gotten in (because - at the other end - we'd understand instructions alright - and be questioning them LOL). Errr....yep....my father told the tale of how a high-up came along to give a talk on the procedure to get promotion and up went my fathers hand at the end of the talk with "Please sah....I've done what you said sah and followed that procedure 3 times now - and I've still not got my promotion". Funnily enough he got given it at that point....

With respect, your points about entry to the British Armed Services are just plain wrong.

Perhaps you are American, CariadAgain?

I’m not saying that there are not those who have difficulties when they leave the services, there are, but they are not a majority by any means and there are not enough agencies helping them. I had a long chat in a supermarket recently with a chap collecting for Veterans into Logistics, a charity set up by someone who was himself an ex serviceman. They give veterans HGV driver training, warehousing and fork lift truck training and general logistical work, and then find them appropriate jobs. They also, in many cases, give them back their self respect and you can’t put a value on that. It seems to work very well, but, like all these charities, it takes a lot of cash.

Allira

^I have to take issue with you there, David49^

Me too.

I think David49 likes playing Devil's Advocate!

Not playing Devils advocate this time, combat/policing roles change them may get PTSD whether they are diagnosed or not, my BIL served in NI. Our parents generation had British Legion where ex servicemen gathered to support each other, I’m sure that helped a lot.

Many go into uniform jobs, Prison officers, Security, sometimes police, or continue as civilian workers, even if they have a transferable trade leaving after 25 yrs service is not easy for many.

I just dont think they or their families get a very good deal having risked life and limb in our defence.

I only know of one instance where the military ethos was so ingrained in someone that they were unable to work alongside civilians, but I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, or PTSD.

DH served in Londonderry in 1972 for two years and we went as a family. We arrived the day after Bloody Sunday and he went to work and didn’t come back for four days. We had no telephone in those days but someone called in daily and let us know that he and his colleagues were okay. This became a norm. We lost friends. He narrowly missed being shot by sniper fire from the Bogside as he came back to his car one evening at the headquarters. It was hard but he and the majority of others came through it. We still remembered and mourned the ones that didn’t. He served in the Falklands immediately following the war, in temperatures 14 degrees below freezing, sleeping in a sleeping bag in some old lady’s attic under a corrugated tin roof, setting up the infrastructure for the new HQ and helping to map ammunition dumps and minefields left behind by the Argentinians. Living conditions were shocking. That’s where the resilience comes in.
The Royal British Legion still do a sterling job of supporting ex service men and their families, as do SSAFA, the Army Benevolent Fund and other charities.

I should have said ex service men and women!

I come from an army family. Three generations of us serving in both world wars and other theatres of war. Everything that David49 and *Cariad have written is nonsense.

Of course there are some people in any profession who cannot adapt to change, but the modern army is highly trained from the youngest private upwards. It wouldn't still be considered as one of the best trained armies in the world if that was not so. Adaptability is a key requirement for a modern army.

Everything that David49 and *Cariad have written is nonsense.

👏👏👏

but the modern army is highly trained from the youngest private upwards.
And that applies to the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and the Royal Air Force too.

Our parents generation had British Legion where ex servicemen gathered to support each other, I’m sure that helped a lot.

The RBL still exists, local clubs, meetings, raising money for the Poppy Appeal, or perhaps that's something else you didn't realise.

David49 I'm presuming you've never heard of the various clubs and societies throughout the land for ex-service personnel of the different Forces.
There are also Veterans' Breakfast Clubs where they can meet, eat and chat frequently.

As you know so much about the Forces I'm surprised you didn't know that.

Allira

^Everything that David49 and *Cariad have written is nonsense.^

👏👏👏

but the modern army is highly trained from the youngest private upwards.
And that applies to the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and the Royal Air Force too.

It’s so much nonsense that the Government and British legion acknowledges there is a problem and ex servicemen do find it difficult. So quite rightly they put massively more effort into support for them than civilian job retraining.

As we know from civilian schemes just because the are offered does not mean they are a guarantee of success.

Of course some will have difficulties. There are always those who might well have found difficulties in life without even entering the Services. They probably had no structure in their lives previously, they might marry young and their marriages broke down, they leave the more structured life of the Services after a relatively short time and cannot cope. They are the few, not the majority.
There is help available.

It is not the norm.

Were you in the Services, David49?
Do you know many ex-service personnel?

Do you know anyone who works with ex-service personnel who might be encountering difficulties adjusting?

With your extensive knowledge of the Services and of education, why are you not PM?
Your Country Needs You.

Allira

^Everything that David49 and *Cariad have written is nonsense.^

👏👏👏

but the modern army is highly trained from the youngest private upwards.
And that applies to the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and the Royal Air Force too.

David You are conflating two different aspects f leaving the army.

You speak first of ex-forces people findng it difficult to work in a civilian situation because they expect to give orders and obey orders. That is one situation.

The other situation is where ex forces people find it difficult to adjust to ordinary civilian life, and that is something different. Many of those who enlist in the armed forces, especially young men, either by nature or nurture find the structure forces life provides meets a need in their life where their life experience or nature has left a gap.

For these people coming out of the forces and losing that structure leaves them totally at a loss. I saw this happen with a friends SiL Fortunately before catatrophe struck, he was accepted into civilian uniformed service and then went to Australia and joined the police. This provided the structure that he instinctively needed for a successful life - and he has done very well. The British Legions, SSAFA and other service charities do a lot to help people like this. The armed forces also do a lot with courses and assistance to help those leaving to adjust to civilian life.

Remembering when my DF left the army, he slipped seamlessly into a new job in branch banking but ti took my parents took awhile to adjust to having to organise and sort out every aspect of their day to day living. Having to find repairmen if anything broke down, not just sending a memo to the Quartermaster, sorting out all their own travel, finding their own housing, althogh my DM did not miss the inquisitoral official Marching in and out of Quarters.

I don’t know whether it’s any different now, but even when DH finished in 1985, resettlement services were not exactly top notch. You were offered six weeks of taster courses for employment options you might be interested in (because he was obliged to do something, DH did a painting and decorating course which only served to confirm that he was never going to make a painter and decorator!) but they were too little, not properly structured and not followed up with solid retraining for those that did not already have a trade within the military. The people who had knew what sort of employment they were going to be looking for and did it off their own back. DH secured his first job during his resettlement leave and was allowed to take it up immediately when he wasn’t due to leave the army for another six weeks. I hope it’s better now than it was then.

my DM did not miss the inquisitoral official Marching in and out of Quarters.

God, me neither!!

Allira

CariadAgain

Allira

My erstwhile brother sorta voluntarily went into the Armed Forces at one point - but it was "sorta" voluntary - because he became a driver in one of them and being a driver was about all he was capable of doing (ie down to having a very low IQ).

I'm not sure that people with very low IQs would get into the Forces.

Your views of the Armed Forces are rather different to those of most service personnel, I would imagine.

I grinned at one point - at reading that is true for the American armed forces. Apparently they do have a minimum IQ level and won't take anyone below that. They also have a maximum IQ level and won't take anyone above that one. The British armed forces don't have a restriction at either end....

My brother is 2 points below minimum level as I recall - and so he wouldnt have got in there (ie the Americans want people to be able to understand instructions). I can't remember what the American maximum is - other than my father would have been kicked straight out at the outset and I'd also not have gotten in (because - at the other end - we'd understand instructions alright - and be questioning them LOL). Errr....yep....my father told the tale of how a high-up came along to give a talk on the procedure to get promotion and up went my fathers hand at the end of the talk with "Please sah....I've done what you said sah and followed that procedure 3 times now - and I've still not got my promotion". Funnily enough he got given it at that point....

With respect, your points about entry to the British Armed Services are just plain wrong.

Perhaps you are American, CariadAgain?

I’d go so far as to say it’s total bollocks 😡