Labour’s policy on the Trans issue

Starmer does seem to have wised up a little. He has, actually, said, on LBC, that a woman is an adult female, and the self ID is not the right way to go.

It's a small step forward.

www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-woman-adult-female-trans-labour-party/

Doodledog

So you (Glorianny) don't think the law should change, and therefore you don't feel obliged to say how it could accommodate the people of your own sex who do feel unsafe with having men in their safe spaces?

And if/when it does have to change, and there is no other solution than banning male-bodied people from women's spaces, because nobody else on the trans lobby has even started to think about anything more useful either, you'll be ok with that?

As I've said 1000 times before, all I want is to know that women can have spaces where only other women are allowed, and where any man going in will be stopped from assaulting anyone, (as happened to my friend) because someone will see he's a man and raise the alarm. The more we get used to men telling us they are women and they will access all areas whether we like it or not, the more change there is that that will happen again.

Well if we ban "male bodied" (honestly how is anyone supposed to know???) people from women's spaces, presumably all the notices in facilities which say they are serviced by male and female operatives will have to go.

I too want women to be safe but I'm not naive enough to believe that any law which bans "male bodied" people from any facility will stop anyone intent on causing harm. And I'm sensible enough to know there are transmen who apparently would either need to prove their physical attributes every time they use a facility or use the male facilities (but why on earth should they be permitted to do so? Equality and all that). And that predatory men could enter a women's space by saying they were transmen. So actually there is no question of me not caring about women's safety. I simply don't see that the law can adequately protect all spaces. And claiming to care about women's safety but not actually looking at the details of what is needed or the practicalities involved is as much use as the proverbial chocolate fireguard.

This seems to be the philosophy
Transwomen if they pass can enter a changing room or loo, because no one really is going to challenge them
Anyone who looks a bit different (and I have no idea how this will be decided or who will decide) can be challenged and must prove they are not "male bodied"
Transwomen are men and must use men's facilities
Transmen are women and must use women's
But how this will be implemented no one knows!!

It’s finally dawned on them that failure to recognise biological facts will alienate a lot of female voters.

They need to say that as sex and gender are different, a GRC means that the holder has changed ‘gender’, which exists in the mind. They have not, however, changed sex, which is in the body. This means that sex-based restrictions (such as access to certain spaces) should still apply.

As is the case already, transpeople have exactly the same rights as everyone else, plus the protections afforded by the EA, and that should not change.

I think that most people would be happy with that.

Glorianny, Your constant reiteration of how can they tell statements makes it obvious to me that you personally don’t care that males use female safe spaces.
Fortunately others do care.

If ID cards come in, they could have both sex and 'gender' marked on them, so that everyone carried proof. Clearly, every loo and changing room is not going to have someone on the door checking the cards, but that really isn't necessary 99% of the time.

If someone wanted to challenge a transwoman who was causing an issue in a changing room or loo, they could ask a member of staff to deal with it, and the staff member would have the authority to ask someone who is male-bodied to leave. As it is now, he just has to say he's a woman, and many believe that he has a right to go wherever he likes. It would probably rarely happen, as it would deter vexatious attempts to exert power over women who have few routes by which to fight back.

Yes, it might be a bit awkward for someone being challenged, but if the problem of 'different-looking' women is widespread enough for 'some of us' to want to have the whole law skewed in their favour, everyone would get used to seeing challenges, and it would be no more unusual than seeing 30 year olds getting challenged when they buy alcohol.

A perfect solution? Probably not, but at least I am trying to find them, which is more than can be said for those who are happy with men being able to access women's spaces.

Whitewavemark2

Anneliese Dodds

We need to recognise that sex and gender are different – as the Equality Act does. We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

I am not hugely knowledgable about this area, but it seems a sensible policy.

I don't think anyone can be "hugely knowledgeable" in this area but knowing what you don't know is always a good starting place.

The LP have had some sort of Conference on policy, haven't they, so it was good they sorted out their policy on this.

What Starmer has said about this issue has received so much publicity and so much anger from supporters of trans women. I just wish there had been as much anger about their retention of the two child benefit cap.
I also wish they were as keen to make things easier for people with disabilities to apply for benefits as they are keen to make things easy to get a gender change certificate.

So, lovecheese perhaps you, or others who feel as you do, can help Kier Starmer by telling us where the money would come from, because that's his difficulty.

To win an election he has to present costed policies. How would he do that?

I can offer a little cheer regarding people people with disabilities applying for benefits. In August this year there will be changes in how PIP is managed. I am not sure how great it will be and it will only apply to those over pension age and those with a severe, lifelong condition. This change will reduce the need to complete a 16 page document to a 6 page one.

Hopefully, if as I expect, we have a none Tory government, they will be able to streamline more benefits. However, to win they still need to convince voters of their probity.

They can always find the money if they want to, it is a matter of political choice.
Good news about the PIP payments, but that didn't come from Starmer.

That is not the point, Ilovecheese. They need the votes of those who are convinced they will be profligate with "our taxes". Added to which only a minority truly believe a government can always find actual money if they want to. Most people believe something has to balance somewhere.

No it didn't come from Labour. It couldn't have done if it's happening this August. I'm sorry, I thought that was obvious. Do you expect Labour to do such things at the moment? (just interested in how you see government).

It is, although no doubt welcome, just a sticking plaster policy. Expect to see a lot of those from both sides, until the yet to be announced election is over,

No, of course I don't think labour can do anything at the moment. What disapoints me is that they don't even seem to want to present an alternative to the narrative of "trickle down economics" and austerity that hasn't made anything better for most people. And that these cultural issues are getting all the attention. However, I realise I am not keeping to the point on this thread.

DiamondLily

Starmer does seem to have wised up a little. He has, actually, said, on LBC, that a woman is an adult female, and the self ID is not the right way to go.

It's a small step forward.

www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-woman-adult-female-trans-labour-party/

It’s a shame that Starmer didn’t say all that some time ago tho isn’t it?

To be fair as a politician I might have been tempted to avoid the discussion too but it was never going to work. In the end people dont like being lied to.

Galaxy

To be fair as a politician I might have been tempted to avoid the discussion too but it was never going to work. In the end people dont like being lied to.

Oh I’m not sure about that. They’ve been lied to for 13 years.

Oreo

DiamondLily

Starmer does seem to have wised up a little. He has, actually, said, on LBC, that a woman is an adult female, and the self ID is not the right way to go.

It's a small step forward.

www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-woman-adult-female-trans-labour-party/

It’s a shame that Starmer didn’t say all that some time ago tho isn’t it?

Yes, it is, although I will be voting around the economy. Nothing more.🙂

By avoiding the discussion he has allowed the right wing to look as if they are the ones who care about women. They don't really but they do know how to get votes.

Keir Starmer appears to be confused about the cervix, and ticked off Rosie Duffield for saying only women can have one. I wonder where he keeps his?

Yes I agree Ilovecheese.

LovesBach

Keir Starmer appears to be confused about the cervix, and ticked off Rosie Duffield for saying only women can have one. I wonder where he keeps his?

Probably confusing it with the Civil cervix 🤔

The thing is I know its infuriating but we have to acknowledge it when people change their mind. I dont know that stating but we have been saying this for years and you watched whilst women lost their jobs and children were harmed is helpful. We have to give people a way out from the nonsense.

Ilovecheese

By avoiding the discussion he has allowed the right wing to look as if they are the ones who care about women. They don't really but they do know how to get votes.

Sadly, I think this is the truth.

I don't for a minute think that the Tories care about women, and 'the average' Tory is probably less likely than the average' Labour voter to be tolerant of difference, but I think that Sunak is winning this battle by spin. Letting Stonewall take over to the extent that he did, then pushing Starmer into answering loaded questions about things like 'gender' has made Labour seem 'woke' on the one hand, and now 'anti-trans' on the other. It's devious, but it's clever.

Starmer is also clever, but he's played this one badly, IMO. As Galaxy says, people don't like to be lied to, and after all the daft things about cervixes, women and dinosaurs that have been said, and all the casualties like Duffield who have fallen, it won't be easy to create a new truth now.

I really hope they pull it off though, as important as this is for women and girls, it is one of a number of areas that are important to the country as a whole, and Labour gives a glimmer of hope.

If I look at friends and family and colleagues, who vote Labour or Conservative or any other party, I can’t say that one group cares less about women than another, possibly because when we’re talking about female sport, female safety female rights, transgender issues in children they all have much the same point of view, from young to old. E.g. One DGD cares because she was deprived of a gold medal in swimming by a boy who said he was a girl, and who at the time, was allowed to compete as a girl.
Another person in hospital with mental health issues was obliged to be in a female ward with a TW who made it perfectly obvious he was not female , but who was not removed from the ward for fear of accusations of being transphobic.
I think the only thing the Tories have done better than the other parties is not making fatuous statements about 99% of women . . . or backing gender treatment for young people directly or indirectly.
Whether one party or their party supporters cares more about female rights, I don’t know, and I don’t have facts to support one way or another.
Everyone was being asked questions about whether they supported Stonewall, or Mermaids or is JKR transphobic or gender to try and catch them out in saying stupid things.
They all need to be clear on gender (a mindset) and sex, a biological fact and not be afraid to say that they know the difference.
Then they need to be strong enough to say that they support trans rights, but not at the expense of female rights and be clear about what that means.

Whitewavemark2

Galaxy

To be fair as a politician I might have been tempted to avoid the discussion too but it was never going to work. In the end people dont like being lied to.

Oh I’m not sure about that. They’ve been lied to for 13 years.

And, seemingly many have been happy with the lies.

Molly, when I said 'Tories' don't care about women, I didn't mean Tory voters, I meant the party policies. I can see how it might not read like that, but Tory voters are a mixed bag, just as Labour or Lib Dem or most other voters. Not all 'lefties' are feminists, for sure . That sort of thing doesn't work on party lines.