Reducing contact because my heart just isn't in it.

Also, on top of the hitting and yelling, I too was expected to be the adult in the room; constantly managing my parents' emotions with never any room for my own. Any negative feelings I may have felt were ignored, dismissed, minimized, mischaracterized, punished and so on. It really messes you up.

Seems to be a common pattern with dysfunctional parents.

PoppySeadBread

Also, on top of the hitting and yelling, I too was expected to be the adult in the room; constantly managing my parents' emotions with never any room for my own. Any negative feelings I may have felt were ignored, dismissed, minimized, mischaracterized, punished and so on. It really messes you up.

Seems to be a common pattern with dysfunctional parents.

Yes, that all sounds very familiar. I know none of us are perfect parents but it seems hard to think you'd be oblivious to some things (like the importance of acknowledging feelings).

My children are adults now and they seem happy enough. Old enough that I've been able to ask them if they think I might have over compensated with things like acknowledging and supporting feelings, but they seem to think that was actually very good. I think I've been good at taking accountability where needed. I can accept I'm not perfect. I think that's a very important thing. It's not the mistakes that create the difficulties but the invalidation and dismissal of them.

My mother took me to counselling for one session when I was 14 because of my fear of my father when he was angry. My mother thought I was the problem and I had issues. I've always thought that she blamed me for my father's behaviour because of that. I only found out a few years ago that the counsellor had told her that the problem wasn't her daughter, it was her husband/my father. Unfortunately I never got the chance to talk to the counsellor about that myself. I was outside most of the time. I got called in for about ten minutes but was never asked to speak. Pity. I could have used the support.

I think some parents never accept what they did was wrong. They think it's ok because it's the way they were raised or/and minimise the treatment saying you were a difficult child.
I think this lack of acceptance and taking responsibility is the main reason for estrangements to become permanent.

Another lovely thought provoking post yesterday @ 23.37 lovethepuppies.

You're absolutely right in that your mum needs to feel how she feels and concentrate on your own feelings. It's often the case in relationships regardless of who they're between that there's a final straw and what might be that final straw for one, wont always be the same for someone else especially if there experience in general is different.

You're also right about different thresholds as what is insurmountable to some, wont be insurmountable to others.

Reconciling after estrangement I agree doesn't come without risk whether you're the one who estranged or the one who was estranged. I've seen some who have reconciled say that a line has been drawn with the decision made by all parties, that the whole episode will never be mentioned again.

That wouldn't work for me. How can you be confident that it wont happen again if unresolved issues remain .

It's good that having counselling enabled you to stand your ground and tell your mum that you wont allow your father to verbally abuse you, even though she allows him to do so with her. I couldn't help thinking that it's sad that he treats her that way.

It's so hard for you and for anyone in this situation when despite everything, there is love there. I've often thought how much easier it would have been for us if we could have turned the love off, but of course you can't.

How did you find out so much later that the counsellor told your mum it was your father who was the problem and not you? It looks to me as if that particular session wasn't for you at all. How could it have been if you were only present for 10 minutes? .

None of us are perfect lovethepuppies and it's incumbent on us all to take accountability for our own shortcomings, but that doesn't mean being held accountable for things you haven't done especially by those who have.

Smileless2012

What does your post have to do with mine @ 20.42 bakestrategic? I haven't said estranging oneself from loving parents is also illogical.

What behavior are EAC generally avoiding being accountable for by estranging their parents?

I haven't said EAC are avoiding being accountable for their behaviour by estranging their parents bakestrategic. I do wish you'd stop asking me questions that have nothing to do with what I've said.

Smileless2012

Of course both are logical bakestrategic. It's perfectly logical for someone who had a loving, supportive and secure childhood to lie so they don't have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

"Their behaviour." What behaviour are you referring to here?

The behaviour of estranging loving, supportive parents who gave them a secure childhood.

As a child my pretty sister was the golden princess. However if I had somehow managed to miss this my parents told me firmly where I was in the social hierarchy when I was in my 20s. They told me that 2/3 of the estate was going to my sister because she had "given" them two grandchildren whereas I had stated my "selfish" intention to be child free.

The result was that as the years progressed I stepped further and further back from my parents. There was no huge family row but I just felt less and less involved. The process completed when I moved to another city for university. Weeks went by and I forgot I had parents because I had another life. I can remember ringing my mother and telling her that I, the first member of the family to get a degree, had got a 1st. Her response was "Well I suppose you'll be coming back to Liverpool now but don't think your staying here for free while you look for a flat."

She was astonished when I told her that, no, I would be staying on to study for a masters and I had already been offered work at the university. It didn't stop my mother from bragging to the likes of neighbours that her daughter was a university lecturer although she had no part in that attainment.

Needless to say I never went back. The relationship became ever more distant.

As ye sow so shall ye reap.

Smileless2012

The behaviour of estranging loving, supportive parents who gave them a secure childhood.

Right. Your logic is circular, I don't expect you to understand or accept that though. Further, the one who experienced their childhood is who can best determine if what they experienced was love and support. The impact is what matters in that case, not intent, but you don't accept that either. Best of luck to you.

No it isn't circular. You obviously don't understand what I'm saying which has nothing to do with impact or intent, so there's no point in continuing to engage,

It's not easy having a 'golden child' for a sibling friendlygingercat my brother was my mother's as it turned out, to the detriment of them both.

It must have been so empowering when you told your mum you weren't returning home because you were going to study for a masters and the university had offered you employment.

Good for you .

Smileless: "How did you find out so much later that the counsellor told your mum it was your father who was the problem and not you? It looks to me as if that particular session wasn't for you at all. How could it have been if you were only present for 10 minutes? confused."

It came up in conversation a few years back, not all that long ago. My mother brought it up, I can't remember the context. No, the session wasn't for me. The session was for my mother to deal with my issues and 'problem behaviour'. That problem behaviour was actually self defence. I'll just say it - I screamed when my father came rushing towards me when angry, because I knew he was going to hit me, and he was strong. The first time was involuntary but it stopped him in his tracks. After that it became a self-defense thing where I knew, if I screamed, he would stop before he started. So it did become a 'thing' I did to protect myself when threatened. My mother's main concern seemed to be, "What will the neighbours think?!" if they heard me. But I was the problem because I screamed.

As a child, I felt I was blamed for my father's bad behaviour. I was. I carried that into adulthood, that belief I was blamed. Defending myself in a way I accidentally found worked made me the problem. So I was the problem that needed fixing. The counsellor told my mother my father was the problem. I suspect my mother downplayed my father's role to the counsellor and probably never mentioned what I was protecting myself from, but I always perceived as the problem with them. When the counsellor mentioned it she did seem disapproving. I don't know what my mother told me. If she'd given me a chance to talk about it I would have told her, "I have to scream." I felt like I had to. A child shouldn't feel like they had to do that at all.

The counsellor also diagnosed me as gifted (just conversation with my mother as the basis) which my mother decided not to tell me, as she didn't want me to get a big head.

I didn't leave my kids alone with my parents at all and always promised myself I would leave and take my children with me if a man was ever like that with my children.

friendlygingercat, I relate to a lot of that in one way or other. I'm sorry you went through all that. It's really not fair. It is definitely true that you reap what you sow.

I've never told anyone that before. It carried too much shame. Sharing it means I don't feel shame anymore and can see how messed up it was. I wish I'd asked a teacher for help. Sometimes it takes a long time to be able to put things into a context and accept the shame isn't ours.

Thank you lovethepuppies.

Knowing that your mum was denying the reality of your father's behaviour by blaming you for doing what you needed to do to protect yourself, makes your compassion and concern about hurting them by going low contact, even more moving .

I didn't leave my kids alone with my parents at all .... reminds me of a conversation I had with our ES, before he had his first child and we were estranged.

To say his wife's childhood was dysfunctional would be an understatement and she was once again having problems with them before they got married. He told me if they had children that he didn't want them to have any contact with them.

I said if he had concerns that they could always ensure that any children were never left alone with them, because if she wanted their children to know them, it would be wrong of him to prevent it.

The bitter irony of course being that we were the ones who were estranged and have never known our only GC.

We don't always reap what we sow .

Just seen your last post. I'm so pleased that you no longer feel shame; sharing does help.

Being able to share our experience as EP's dispelled my shame
too .

"Knowing that your mum was denying the reality of your father's behaviour by blaming you for doing what you needed to do to protect yourself, makes your compassion and concern about hurting them by going low contact, even more moving."

I can see how being an estranged parent yourself could warp your view into thinking its "moving", but in reality it's quite sad that she still priotizes their feelings this much after what they have done.

Her mother didn't just deny reality, but enabled her husband's abuse. Abusers can't function without their enablers.

Not only did her parents completely fail her, but have also conditioned her to value her own feelings less (and in favor of theirs).

They gave her good reasons to go to therapy and no doubt made her life much more difficult than it ever needed to be and she is still wasting time and energy worrying about appeasing them.

On a personal tangent, I had a similar story. I acted different than the other school kids so my teachers recommended I see a child therapist. Filling out an initial paper before the visit, it asked some personal questions. One question asked how suicidal I felt, and after asking my mom what suicide meant, I filled out that I sometimes feel suicidal. My mom then reviewed all of my answers and was mortified that I wrote I sometimes felt suicidal. She erased it and changed it to "never felt suicidal". She was deathly afraid what others might think if her 7 year old child already had suicidal thoughts but didn't give a single care that I actually thought about killing myself at such a young age. This revelation didn't change her behavior at all and some years later she actually directly encouraged me to kill myself at 1 point.

User147831, family image is everything, right? Sad.

I am not prioritising their feelings. I am enjoying the freedom. I spent the first few weeks on the day I would normally call feeling a bit bad about it. Last weekend I enjoyed having the day without the interruption of the phone call in the middle of it. Today, I feel the freedom of it and I like it.

As far as I'm concerned, how it is now is how it is going to continue to be. That feels like a weight lifted and I feel good. My mother can feel however she feels and I don't feel the need to fix it for her.

It's possible that a conversation will come up at some point. I'll see how I feel then about sharing more with them but I won't be changing things or seeing them in person. Everything has always been about my mother's needs and how she wants things to be. No more. Now it's about what is best for me and mine.

The only warped views I see here are yours User, no doubt due to your past which I'm sorry for but that doesn't excuse you persistently coming onto these threads to insult and denigrate the EP's here which does nothing to assist the OP.

It's a wonderful moment when you feel that the weight you've been carrying has been lifted lovethepuppies .

Now it's about what is best for me and mine which is how is should be.

lovethepuppies

Smileless2012

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Few people are all bad. My mother has done some shocking behaviours, yet she visited regularly, was generous with my children, would be there in a real emergency. I do know some of her generous moves were to meet her own needs (will spare the details). She has some issues for sure, which I don't think she has the awareness of herself, but there are the nice times, the conversations we can share about our gardens, that sort of thing. I think it's partly a hormonal thing on my part that I just don't have the energy to be managing those issues at this point in time, which is why it's come to a head now. It just took a trigger event to bring everything to a head for me.

My late mother was the same. Absolutely could not connect with me emotionally, although no abuse and good with the practical stuff . She drove me nuts. I was her problem without actually doing anything to be one,😂. She never had a good word for or about me. To be fair here, I could be a stroppy mare though. 😉

I was thinking of estranging her when I was 18 and getting married for the first time.

But, I held fire, and once I had my kids, she was the best granny they could ever have had. And again, with her GG kids. They all loved her to bits, as she did them.

She and I reached a calm agreement that we’d never denigrate each other, to the children. It worked. 👍

My (now middle aged) kids will never know my true feelings about her. No need. The past is done. Can’t be changed, and I hold no resentments. It was what it was.

And, I don't regret not estranging her for a moment.

Sometimes, it’s all about the bigger picture.

Such a positive post DL

Your post resignates with me D.L.

DiamondLily

lovethepuppies

Smileless2012

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Few people are all bad. My mother has done some shocking behaviours, yet she visited regularly, was generous with my children, would be there in a real emergency. I do know some of her generous moves were to meet her own needs (will spare the details). She has some issues for sure, which I don't think she has the awareness of herself, but there are the nice times, the conversations we can share about our gardens, that sort of thing. I think it's partly a hormonal thing on my part that I just don't have the energy to be managing those issues at this point in time, which is why it's come to a head now. It just took a trigger event to bring everything to a head for me.

My late mother was the same. Absolutely could not connect with me emotionally, although no abuse and good with the practical stuff . She drove me nuts. I was her problem without actually doing anything to be one,😂. She never had a good word for or about me. To be fair here, I could be a stroppy mare though. 😉

I was thinking of estranging her when I was 18 and getting married for the first time.

But, I held fire, and once I had my kids, she was the best granny they could ever have had. And again, with her GG kids. They all loved her to bits, as she did them.

She and I reached a calm agreement that we’d never denigrate each other, to the children. It worked. 👍

My (now middle aged) kids will never know my true feelings about her. No need. The past is done. Can’t be changed, and I hold no resentments. It was what it was.

And, I don't regret not estranging her for a moment.

Sometimes, it’s all about the bigger picture.

Yes, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. It sounds like things worked out positively in your case.

My mother wasn't a bad grandmother. She didn't really babysit (which was fine) but she made an effort. I did find, however, that the children get older and make their own observations. They draw their own conclusions from that. She did actually have a difficult relationship with one of my children - mostly because she is directive and expects instant obedience, which that child wasn't so receptive of. I didn't allow that for a moment. I know my own children have recognised my mother's lack of empathy too, and I've validated them in that.

I'm aware some of what I've shared here would be recognised by my mother if she ever came across it, but does it really matter if she finds out I'm working through some stuff?