Reducing contact because my heart just isn't in it.

That's unfair MarieElla. What you say is one of many reasons for low or no contact but there are others.

EAC are just as likely to tell other relatives friends and neighbours that they did nothing wrong when they have.

Yes it is wonderful crazy in fact for me, everything lovethepuppies has posted has been lovely to read. Her insight, compassion and understanding shine through .

It's often the case and is in the OP's.
Her mother has takes no responsibility for the damage she's caused in their relationship.

And it's often the case that it's because of the adult child's and/or their partners behaviour. That isn't the case for the OP, which is why each one should be seen and responded too individually without sweeping generalisations.

It's true that sometimes children wrongly disown their parents.

But I think that case is so rare that parents disowning their children (for marrying the wrong race, gender, religion, caste, etc.) happens much more frequently than it.

Smileless2012 you might start another thread about your own situation as I think it's very different to the OP's.

My own situation has no bearing on my responses to you MarieElla. I'm disagreeing with your generalisations about the reasons for low or no contact.

It isn't so rare PoppySeadBread as any research on estrangement and its causes will show you.

I did say 'generally ' in my post.
But I will also say it's rare an adult child cuts off their parents easily, it's usually after many chances have been given and the parent doesn't change or take responsibility.

Disclaimer, Smileless2012
This is not about you.
I kmow nothing about your situation, so please don't take it personally.

I'm not taking it personally MarieElla.

What are you basing your statements on? What research exists to substantiate your claim that estrangement usually happens after many chances have been given and the parent doesn't change or take responsibility?

I am basing it on the friends and extended family members who have cut their parents out of their lives.
I know two of my aunts both claim they have done nothing wrong and therfore my cousins have had no choice but to estrange themselves. Estranged friends have had similar experiences.
None of them have done this lightly.
I keep my distance from both aunts too as they tend to be judgemental and self righteous.
What's your experience of estrangement, if you don't mind sharing?

Smileless2012

I'm not taking it personally MarieElla.

What are you basing your statements on? What research exists to substantiate your claim that estrangement usually happens after many chances have been given and the parent doesn't change or take responsibility?

That is what the adult children report in stories, surveys, etc. For that to not be true, we would have to assume the vast majority of estranged adult children are lying.

So are we to assume that the vast majority of estranged parents are lying MarieElla?

I don't accuse those who estrange of lying, why would I? There are many reasons why estrangement happens, sometimes it's the parents who are to blame and sometimes it isn't, as reported in stories from EP's and surveys they take part in.

We have been estranged from our youngest son and only GC for more than 13.5 years but as you pointed out earlier, this thread isn't about me.

"So are we to assume that the vast majority of estranged parents are lying"

Yes, because generally they benefit a lot more from lying in such a situation.

There is no real benefit in being an orphan, so choosing by yourself to become on requires excruciating circumstances (such as being born to narcissists).

But parents who find themselves disowned benefit a lot from lying. No-one wants to be seen by their community as a monster or undesirable person whose own kids want nothing to do with them.

In terms of the reasons for an adult child to estrange their parent(s), they are the primary source for their reasons; the parent is a secondary source. This discrepancy between estranged adult children's reasons for estranging and what the estranged parents say the reasons are is perhaps a reflection of what the estranged adult children say, that their parents didn't listen to them. I'm speaking in generalities based off of available information, of course.

Well yes that's to be expected isn't it bakestrategic.

An abusive parent isn't going to say they've been abused because they're abusive, anymore than an EAC will say they've estranged their parents who gave them a loving, supportive and secure childhood.

Thankfully we are not seen as monsters or undesirable people because our youngest son estranged us PoppySeadBread nor should we be, because we're not.

Smileless2012 I am sorry you are an estranged parent. I assume you've taken responsibility/apologised for your part but your child is still not willing to have you back in their life.

MarieElla

*Smileless2012 * I am sorry you are an estranged parent. I assume you've taken responsibility/apologised for your part but your child is still not willing to have you back in their life.

I believe there is nothing for her to apologize for or take responsibility of.

In another post she mentioned that her estrangement only happened because of her child's spouse.

Smileless2012

Well yes that's to be expected isn't it bakestrategic.

An abusive parent isn't going to say they've been abused because they're abusive, anymore than an EAC will say they've estranged their parents who gave them a loving, supportive and secure childhood.

Thankfully we are not seen as monsters or undesirable people because our youngest son estranged us PoppySeadBread nor should we be, because we're not.

I think the difference is that one is logical while the other is not. It's logical for an abusive person to lie about not being abusive: to not have to take accountability for their behavior. It's not logical for someone to lie about their childhood or their current relationship with their parent(s) in order to orphan themselves. Not to say it never happens, but the illogical nature of it suggests it's very rare.

You assume wrongly MarieElla. I doubt he would want us back in his life but if he did, that is not what we want now.

That's almost correct PoppySeadBread but our ES is just as responsible.

Of course both are logical bakestrategic. It's perfectly logical for someone who had a loving, supportive and secure childhood to lie so they don't have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

Smileless2012

Of course both are logical bakestrategic. It's perfectly logical for someone who had a loving, supportive and secure childhood to lie so they don't have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

What behavior? Estranging oneself from "loving" parents is also illogical.

What does your post have to do with mine @ 20.42 bakestrategic? I haven't said estranging oneself from loving parents is also illogical.

Gosh, a lot to catch up on. I do appreciate the perspectives of both sides of it. I think estrangement hurts on both sides, even when one side has chosen it. I can see that my parents are starting to see that I have pulled back and knowing they are having feelings about that pains me. At the same time, last night I was thinking about how my mother feels about me not calling and realised I had to resist the old pattern of being responsible for her difficult feelings. It's easy for me to think mother upset I haven't called = call her to let her know I care and make her feel better. No, she has done something that affects the relationship and I'm not going to smooth things over this time. I have to let her feel how she feels and worry about how I feel this time.

No relationship is perfect. I think, for me, it's less about the one incident and more lots of different incidences of being trampled that have done it. The incident that triggered my response here is probably relatively minor but it's like the last straw that resulted in something flipping in me.

I do understand why a parent might not want to go back once an estranged child comes back. It's risky and they're probably emotionally drained enough that they just can't give it the energy. Maybe a bit how I'm feeling at the moment.

I don't think these things happen without reason. We probably just have different thresholds for where it happens. We have different coping styles and communication styles, some which are more productive or detrimental than others. One reason I choose to talk about it here is that I am good at second guessing myself (a side effect of always being told my feelings and needs were wrong as a child), so I value other input. It helps me consider things.

I think we can all agree that we all want to have good parent-child bonds. When we don't have that, it hurts.

The fact your mother has ever made you feel responsible for her feelings is a moral failing on her part as a parent, especially that she has instilled such a deeply ingrained urge in you to fix her mood.

It does hurt when we don't have good parent-child bonds, but the relationship is completely lopsided, with the burden and responsibility of fostering a good bond falling on the parents. Considering that they are the ones who choose to being the relationship, and the fact that they are full-grown adults taking care of you from the moment you're born. Not to mention that every single child is born loving their parents. It is as natural as breathing air and eating food because their survival hinges on loving and trusting their parents.

It takes a lot of work to sever that natural, automatic bond children have with their parents.

That brings up so much for me PoppySeadBread. Having to placate my father who took out his anxiety on us in my teenage years. Everyone had to tiptoe around the anxiety. No making him responsible for getting help for it, so we could live normal lives while he dealt with his own feelings.

The only people who know this story were present, so not too worried about it being outing: Even when I was in my 30s my mother said to me, when visiting, "Now, if your father comes home in one of his moods tonight, which he probably will today, just let it wash over you and ignore it to keep the peace." At that point I'd had some counselling and I told her straight, "No, I'm not going to do that. If you want to allow him to be verbally abusive to you, then that's up to you, but I'm not going to accept it or show my kids that it's okay." This brought on the usual eye roll that let me know I was 'being difficult', which I always was when I was unhappy about something, having feelings or wanting to have personal boundaries.

Yet I could also have lovely conversations with my father, he is actually the one I'd go to for empathy over my mother. It's hard because there's this love but then there's also that sense that some things as not okay.

He may have been better of the two parents you got, but that doesn't change the fact they both were likely ill-equipped to be proper parents.

The good times never justify the bad times. Plenty of people and families can have good times without there ever being bad times. The concept may seem alien to you when you never grew up with it, but it exists and depending where you are, it may even be the norm.

I'm glad you set a good example for your kids. Too many dysfunctional families allow their intergenerational trauma to continue because it's too much work to do better, or they may not even realize that it's not ok or normal to begin with.

It may seem silly and obvious to me now, but it was quite a shock when I first learned that it's not normal for parents to hit their children or regularly yell at them as a form of communication. There are a lot of other toxic behaviors that are less obvious than physical and verbal abuse, such as your example of having to manage your parents' moods.

There really is only one correct way to love others, but a million different ways to hurt others. That's why it's important to revaluate your childhood experiences, identify problematic behaviors and deprogram yourself from what you used to consider as normal. For your sake, and especially your kids (if you have them).