Never dreamt this could happen

This did sounds very insecure and she seems to want to cut off everything and everyone who was in your son’s previous life. In a minor way we have this with a sil who will never attend family gatherings and never visit us though we are allowed and I mean allowed to visit them , only if we ask, of course. It is so sad and I feel for you missing a dear gc. Would it help if you sent a card or something saying how much you miss them all and maybe you could get together, if only in a park or somewhere neutral? If you are always nice and friendly and don’t give her any reason whatsoever to turn her back maybe she will mature a bit and stop seeing you all as a threat? Not easy because she sounds like a nasty one but do your best. Can you ring your son privately and say how you feel? He may not realise.

Grannyrose15
Please read the post from freedom in this same page.

I can never understand why anyone would want to deny a child a loving relationship with a grandparent. Or why they should think that the nuclear family of mum, dad and 2.4 children could ever stand entirely alone in our chaotic world. Extended families, for all their faults, offer support in times of trouble, and valuable lessons in how to get on with other people.

If it hadn't been for my family rallying round when I needed them, I probably wouldn't have survived.

I have huge sympathy for anyone who is estranged from other members of their family. It is sad and a wound that will never fully heal. I'm afraid though I can't offer much hope that things will get better. Best to get on with your own life and accept what has happened.

Madgran77

*I think sometimes, expectations from our generation are way too high, our children have to go and make their own lives, and their new family will, and should always take priority.
We do not own our children, and God knows, I wouldn’t want my children visiting me out of a sense of duty.*

True, but this does not relate to estrangement which is something very different even to visiting out of duty.

I disagree. I think it does relate. Often expectations that are too high lead to conflict and can lead to estrangement

I am estranged from my mother, I never say a bad word about her to my children or grandchildren, beyond the fact that we don’t get on, and they are all in touch. I’m not sure she shows me the same courtesy, but that’s just her.

Smileless2012

Where has it even been suggested Hithere that GP's want the role and decision making of the parents?

Suggesting that if there are concerns about what might be said to or within the hearing of a child, that this can be managed by one or both parents always being present is simply that, a suggestion.

It's workable; we did it when I was not in contact with my m.i.l. and Mr. S. continued to take our boys to see their GP's.

In some cases solutions are sort to avoid estrangement, in some cases estrangement is the only solution and in some cases it's the 'go too' solution.

It's not always in the best interests of children for estrangement to happen. For them to lose the GP's they know and love. Sometimes the decision to estrange has nothing to do with what's best for the children, what's in their best interests doesn't even come into the equation.

Let's not kid ourselves that there aren't some GP's who have lost their AC and their GC not because they're at fault, but because their AC and/or partner is.

Completely agree that there are numerous scenarios in which that happens.

More likely there is a lack of accountability for behaviour and harsh words on both sides.

In the particular scenario that I replied about, my assessment is that an adult should be able to control and regulate their behaviour in front of a child.

I do understand and to be honest I did the same as you, my DH did still take my children to see his mum even after I stopped going.

In hindsight I did not adequately protect my children. My MIL was not dangerous or abusive, but she was negative, passive aggressive and could not hold her tongue.

Shockingly this meant my children did not like her.

My point is that in continuing (in this particular scenario) contact is damaging. Why did I think it was ok to keep exposing my children to this type of person? My DH did tell his mum to pack it in, but that didn’t change the fact the children had heard what she was saying.

So why am I accountable for my behaviour (in removing myself), but she was not?

As I’ve said before I now see I should have been firmer from the beginning, I made a rod for my own back. My realisation was that I could not change her or her behaviour - so I did choose to maintain the contact via my DH and it wasn’t good for my children.

If there is a mindset of “well I didn’t do anything”, in my honest opinion it’s a lost cause - no-one is perfect, we all make mistakes. Reflection and accountability are how these things can be resolved but it needs to happen on both sides.

So from my own experience, I’d advocate for anyone who doubts the ability of any adult to regulate themselves appropriately around their children, to remove their children from that persons presence. And that is in the best interests of the rights of that child.

And it’s still not the parents ‘fault’

Parents hold all the power. End of. They make decisions about what they feel is best for their children.
There is no power struggle because that means another side believes they have power. They don’t.

Hithere

Thank you. I am happy to report that my child is doing well, though it has been a 3 year battle and the work still is not done. It literally changes lives, theirs and ours.

No one ever wants to be part of a population that has had a child try to harm themselves. And it was fully preventable. It doesn't matter if it is the maternal or paternal grandparent, it is never ok to speak badly about a child's parent where a child can hear. No matter what the relationship is with the parent.

Where has it even been suggested Hithere that GP's want the role and decision making of the parents?

Suggesting that if there are concerns about what might be said to or within the hearing of a child, that this can be managed by one or both parents always being present is simply that, a suggestion.

It's workable; we did it when I was not in contact with my m.i.l. and Mr. S. continued to take our boys to see their GP's.

In some cases solutions are sort to avoid estrangement, in some cases estrangement is the only solution and in some cases it's the 'go too' solution.

It's not always in the best interests of children for estrangement to happen. For them to lose the GP's they know and love. Sometimes the decision to estrange has nothing to do with what's best for the children, what's in their best interests doesn't even come into the equation.

Let's not kid ourselves that there aren't some GP's who have lost their AC and their GC not because they're at fault, but because their AC and/or partner is.

Freedom

That is horrible, I am so sorry

I also wonder what the discussion would be like if the person talking badly about a parent was NOT a relative? Would it still seem reasonable to overlook and accept bad behavior?

Children have the right to not hear a grandparent or other relative not talk badly about their parent.

If the grandparent, or other relative chooses to do so, that is on them and it is fully reasonable that a parent would thus limit or cut contact with that person.

It is boundaries and consequences. The boundary = do not talk badly about a parent to a child or there will be a consequence = limited or no contact. By allowing a grandparent or other relative to continue bad behavior, we are also teaching our children that it is ok to allow people to cross boundaries and have no consequences.

This is the exact scenario that resulted in my own mother being cut off from my kids. I spent 4 years trying to discuss our differences. We agreed to not bring the kids into it. She lied to my face. It ended with one of my children being suicidal.

So no, there is no scenario I can think of that would seem reasonable to continue to allow a child contact with an adult who does not have the best interest of the child front and center and insists on talking badly about a parent around the child.

Smileless2012

It isn't ridiculous it's one way of taking control and avoiding the pain of estrangement for all concerned, in particular children who are suddenly deprived of their GP's.

As is said over and over again on this topic, it's the rights of the children that should be considered and where possible protected and not just the rights of the parents.

What about the rights of the child not to be around someone who says mean or negative things about the mum and/or dad?

Surely you must see how damaging that dynamic would be for a child?

Realistically if there isn’t enough maturity or emotional intelligence in an adult to know that they shouldn’t be disparaging a child’s parent within earshot of that child, then that person really shouldn’t be around the child.

Velaine, I wish you good luck - with DIL, but also with GN!

Hithere- is that really the case?

As a grandparent dealing with estrangement all I want to do is spend some time with my grandchild. Simple really.

I have two other grandchildren from whom I am not estranged, but they live too far away for me to see more than a few times a year.
I have no control over their lives or any decisions they make.
After raising my own family I love the freedom I have in just enjoying the company of my grandsons, and they mine.
My little grand-daughter is almost a year old and has no idea she has a loving family out there who just want her to know how much she is loved.
For whatever unfathomable reason my DIL actively seeks to deprive her of that. I cannot and will never understand it, although I am forced to accept it.

Why do grandparents want the control and decision making power that belongs to the parents?

Of course it’s control. It’s their children. Not a time share apartment.
They don’t need to justify to anyone. And anyone I had to supervise my child with outside of health issues wouldn’t see my child.

And again. If an adult can’t hold their tongue then the child is better off without them.
I think at times the role of Grandparents can be grossly exaggerated here.

It isn't ridiculous it's one way of taking control and avoiding the pain of estrangement for all concerned, in particular children who are suddenly deprived of their GP's.

As is said over and over again on this topic, it's the rights of the children that should be considered and where possible protected and not just the rights of the parents.

* If there's a genuine concern that GC will hear things about one or other of their parents from angry and frustrated GP's then don't leave the GC alone with them*

That is absolutely ridiculous. If a grown adult can not hold their tongue around a child then the parents are more than within their rights to protect their child.

That could be the case TinFoilTiara but of so, why not talk about the issues and try and find a solution. Walking away doesn't make the issues go away, it simply means that you don't have to deal with them.

If there's a genuine concern that GC will hear things about one or other of their parents from angry and frustrated GP's then don't leave the GC alone with them. If a d.i.l. or s.i.l. no longer wants to have a relationship with their in laws then why does that necessitate their husbands or wives having to cut off not just their parents, but in many cased their entire family?

I hope so too Sparkling. It really does help knowing that you're not alone and that some if not all what you're experiencing, has been and is experienced by others.

I hope in some way Velaine the replies have been of some help and give you some confidence, knowing you are not alone in your situation.

I watched my mother disengage from her family over a period of years because my grandparents (grandmother especially) would disparage my father to my mother (and the grandkids!). His family was of a "lower class," he was "too loud," he "deliberately took a job and moved us all out of town" things like that. I don't even think my grandmother thought she was being mean, but it was a lot to hear. So in my grandmother's mind, she probably could honestly say that she did "nothing" and my father forced us away from her. Just a thought. It might be all OP's son's decision based on the perceived or actual treatment of his wife by his family.

*I think sometimes, expectations from our generation are way too high, our children have to go and make their own lives, and their new family will, and should always take priority.
We do not own our children, and God knows, I wouldn’t want my children visiting me out of a sense of duty.*

True, but this does not relate to estrangement which is something very different even to visiting out of duty.

Thank you Cafe. I think whenever problems occur, estrangement particularly, it’s so hard, that when the high emotions have been cried out a lot, you do what you have always done and be true to yourself, don’t let it consume you as you can’t make anyone want you that doesn’t, or see you if they don’t want to, hard as it is, in your heart wish them well think I’ve done my best, they know I’m always here for them and you will never stop loving them, I’ve told them often enough. Get the best life made for yourself that you can, be busy, loving to those you care about, that care about you, talk to that person in the bus queue always on their own, be aware of others, you have to think outside the painful bubble you can end up in. People on the whole are kind and you can move on and be happy. My heart goes out to all living with estrangement, it can be a lonely place.

I think you could be right Amberone which having just re read the OP is a shame because she came here looking for advice on how to cope with her estrangement from her son, and losing contact with her GC.

Threads do meander which is both understandable and can be a positive thing but this thread wasn't started as a general discussion about estrangement, and it would appear that despite some of the posts made, the OP hasn't found the advice and support she was looking for.

It's very cruel to post where EP's are posting about the sons they have lost that they've been raised to be spineless. It wouldn't be said about an EP's D if she were being coerced by her male partner.

It would never be said and never should be that an AC who has estranged abusive and dysfunctional parents is spineless for not continuing with the relationship.

As children leave home and start their adult lives which often results in them raising families of their own, it's understandable that we their parents see less if them and the amount of contact we have reduces.

That's nothing like estrangement when you simply no longer exist. No 'phone calls, text messages or cards. You hope that they and their children are well and happy but you have no idea if that's the case.

GP's who once had regular contact with their GC no longer see them and those children have had their GP's who they know and love, taken away from them.

I agree that there is a place for a broader discussion on estrangement but a thread that has been started by someone looking for support, and/or a thread that is there to offer support for anyone living with estrangement, is not the place.

These threads are not echo chambers, they are started for a specific reason and those who post there should be able to do so without fear of harshly expressed judgement and sweeping generalisations which invalidate what they're going through.