Draft Bill to enforce belief in “transgenderism”

Can you please point to some information on this please? I can only find a draft bill relating to abusive conversion practices.

This is the bill;

www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-conversion-practices-bill/conversion-practices-draft-bill

This is Stonewalls response;

www.stonewall.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/ban-conversion-practices/everything-you-need-know-about-conversion-practices

Yes, it relates to abusive conversion practices which I can't see parents wishing to protect their children ever engaging with.

I thought that was already outlawed?

These misleading thread titles are so annoying.

Thank you Sago

I'm not sure that beliefs (as opposed to actions) can be enforced or outlawed, but as Smileless says, this is very specifically about abusive conversion, and it applies to those attempting to 'convert' others to or from a belief that they are transgender.

It would make it an offence to encourage children towards hormone or surgical treatments, which, IMO can only be a good thing, as both are abusive. It would also make it an offence to abusively 'convert' someone from their belief that they are 'in the wrong body'. The word 'abusive' is crucial here. It is defined as something that causes:
(a) serious harm to the individual’s physical or mental health, or
(b) serious alarm or distress to the individual which has a substantial adverse effect on their usual day-to-day activities.

Is anyone going to argue that causing serious harm to others is acceptable?

The lgb alliance have some similar concerns to the op, they are opposed to the bill, they believe it will harm gay people ( particularly lesbians) as it poses a risk to those who suggest to young women that rather than being ' born in the wrong body' they may be gay.
I trust the definition of serious harm in the way I trust some people's definition of women.

I mean b) alone is a serious worry to me.

You have a deeper understanding of the issues Galaxy, and I don't understand how lesbians would be adversely affected. They seem to have been shoved aside in any discussions I have seen around this topic.
A bit muddle, my apologies.

Surely ‘belief’ can’t be ‘enforced’.

winterwhite

Surely ‘belief’ can’t be ‘enforced’.

There are those who will try it!

I dont know that I do have a deeper understanding to be honest, it is like wading through treacle sometimes. So the argument is that lots of the young women who are being told they are trans are in fact lesbians. That being told you are in the wrong body is a form of conversion therapy in itself. So some worry that if gender identity is included in the conversion bill, therapists who are simply saying to young women 'have you thought you might be gay rather than trans' would fall victim to this legislation.

Ah, I think I know what is going on here.

Its now clear within the NHS already that this sort of practice is no-go: I have actually discussed it with my very good NHS psychologist as to the boundaries now set and the why's and wherefores:

But

We have to remember that there is a substantial private sector where this needs exact regulation, as they will for example give puberty blockers or may try and influence people in a way that is well out of order with current NHS guidelines

And that the voluntary sector also needs to be aware of the guidelines and therefore its being put into law.

All these guidelines actually relate to the Cass Review, after which a very small number of NHS clinics are now set up for young people: and bear in mind that for adults, there is a very complex process involving proper counselling laid down before treatment of all kinds.

The problem is now a huge shortage of access for both young people and adults, and that is why people go to the private sector.

Thanks Galaxy. So, youngsters are being told, rather than saying for themselves.
Puberty is hard enough without pressure and influence from 'vested interests'.

Well it is complex, lots of these young people would I am sure say they were 'in the wrong body' but it is importan t for families and therapists to try and explore what this means. If it means they are attracted to women, have short hair, dont conform to the stereotypes of how women present, then they need to be told this is OK, it does not mean they are male. Lots of teenagers who seem to be going down the 'gender' route often have a lot of other issues including autism, history of abuse, etc, these are tricky issues which need sensitive handling and people need to be able to explore these issues with young people.

Maremia

Thanks Galaxy. So, youngsters are being told, rather than saying for themselves.
Puberty is hard enough without pressure and influence from 'vested interests'.

This has always been a problem, and is probably one of the reasons groups such as Stonewall want to hitch Trans issues to the pre-existing gay lobby. Sexuality and so-called 'gender identity' are not the same thing, but they have managed to conflate them in the minds of many.

I can only add, in my opinion, no child, ie under 18 (& pesonall is like to see this raised to 21), should

Sorry pressed wrong button grrr

Anyway my point is no child should ever be able to start any kind of journey towards becoming they are an adult (18 at the very least), nor at this point, until they have had a full psychological assessment, followed by extensive counselling,

Galaxy

Well it is complex, lots of these young people would I am sure say they were 'in the wrong body' but it is importan t for families and therapists to try and explore what this means. If it means they are attracted to women, have short hair, dont conform to the stereotypes of how women present, then they need to be told this is OK, it does not mean they are male. Lots of teenagers who seem to be going down the 'gender' route often have a lot of other issues including autism, history of abuse, etc, these are tricky issues which need sensitive handling and people need to be able to explore these issues with young people.

I completely agree.

Doodledog

I'm not sure that beliefs (as opposed to actions) can be enforced or outlawed, but as Smileless says, this is very specifically about abusive conversion, and it applies to those attempting to 'convert' others to or from a belief that they are transgender.

It would make it an offence to encourage children towards hormone or surgical treatments, which, IMO can only be a good thing, as both are abusive. It would also make it an offence to abusively 'convert' someone from their belief that they are 'in the wrong body'. The word 'abusive' is crucial here. It is defined as something that causes:
(a) serious harm to the individual’s physical or mental health, or
(b) serious alarm or distress to the individual which has a substantial adverse effect on their usual day-to-day activities.

Is anyone going to argue that causing serious harm to others is acceptable?

I 100% agree.

Galaxy

Well it is complex, lots of these young people would I am sure say they were 'in the wrong body' but it is importan t for families and therapists to try and explore what this means. If it means they are attracted to women, have short hair, dont conform to the stereotypes of how women present, then they need to be told this is OK, it does not mean they are male. Lots of teenagers who seem to be going down the 'gender' route often have a lot of other issues including autism, history of abuse, etc, these are tricky issues which need sensitive handling and people need to be able to explore these issues with young people.

I agree with this.
And I think there are too many labels, transgender, non binary, pan sexual, queer, gay, lesbian, etc. Young people are now expected to navigate their way through this when their lived experience is not yet long enough to cope with the pressures. I certainly wouldn’t want to be young now.
And to what extent is suggestibility or present trends making some children believe they don’t have the right body?
Or as you say if they just feel ‘different’ to what extent should this be translated as being in the wrong body.
I was work in progress for very many years, only really happy in my own skin in my forties, or even later. And I changed as a person so many times. If I was living now rather than then who is to say I wouldn’t think that I was in the wrong body.

That’s what the psychologist I wax taking about noted particularly: young or indeed older people with some sorts of autism.

If one feels one is ‘wrong’ in oneself, then it might appear as a solution. To ‘make things all right”.

I only know two transgender people well.
One decided pretty late in life after years, it was for her. She is currently in a bad state, as well: it wasn’t. But I know her well enough that she isn’t autistic, and not influenced by anyone who was not benign. It was her decision. I am guessing, how can it be otherwise, she would have ended up needing help had she not taken the decision she did. Very troubling for those around her and her family.

The other person is in her 20’s. Happy, settled, with a partner, kind and mild, totally unwilling to enter women only situations without express welcome. I am fine with that.

It’s my belief now that there are a very small number of genuine ‘in the wrong gender’ people, and they have a right to trans and get help, with all the safety and caution that can be offeeed once they are past 18.

But as with all MH areas, as it still comes under MH, the cutbacks have meant totally inadequate access at any age for Counselling, and for those who can afford a private route, they will choose it, and for those who can’t find help, a great deal of frustration and anger which means some take it out on other women as we have seem.

My key concern therefore is to welcome the legislation that applies to private and voluntary groups, but until we get the resources we will carry on with current troubles.