BREXIT? Am I just plain stupid?

Dogsjj, if we're going to trade with foreigners, and most people seem to think that we want to do that, then we will be subject to rules that aren't of our own making. It's unavoidable. No unelected officials are making our laws, nor ever did. Parliament has always been the only law making body in the UK.

newnanny, which lawyers calculate we owe much less? Where has a legal opinion on the matter been published? Most discussion indicates that it is far more complex than coming up with a list. See for example www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/eu-divorce-bill

Over the last year we have been selling a lot more services to Japan. We now sell twice as many services to Japan than Germany our biggest EU consumer. There is a big market place out there in the world so no need to be obsessed with EU. We need to set up trade with more different countries so eggs not all in one basket. We can keep our money and government choose how to spend it instead of paying so much into EU.

Being in the EU has never stopped us trading with countries outside it.

Mamie Of course there are choices, no doubt about that, all I was pointing out is that no-one can predict the future, so regardless of the deal we get we cannot know what will happen. Whether we get a hard or a soft deal, whether we deal with Canada etc, we'll never know if we chose the wrong way.

We cannot predict the future misdeke but we can make an informed decision based on available data. To undertake a major project on the basis that it might or might not be ok would be foolhardy in the extreme.

"We the People's Republic of Brighton and Hove formerly request that the local city council and local government of Brighton and Hove conduct a serious discussion and view options and opportunities for exiting from the UK and remaining as part of the EU. We request a local referendum is conducted where the residents and citizens of Brighton and Hove can directly choose how to proceed with clear options and mandates given on what an exit would look like, how it might work, how we could structure ourselves economically as part of the EU and which, if any other member states we could align with in order to create a stable local economy as an independent state. Minimally, we request a vote on the full devolution of powers from Westminster to the local city authority to give us full control over local politics, healthcare, laws and the economy. "

For you, whitewave.

Some of these trade agreements we have with countries outside the EU are done through the EU and those agreements will go on Brexit day. Japan is one of those countries so most trade with them will need to be renegotiated.

Cornwall, which has a population of just 530,000 people, voted resoundingly to leave the EU, with 56.52 per cent opting for leave – more than the national average - compared to 43.48 per cent voting to remain.

Not quite everybody in Cornwall. That sounds like a typical Brexiteer exaggeration.
They asked for special consideration straight after the referendum, even though most of their MPs voted for Brexit. Who do they expect to lose out so they can have more money?

I would think they feel the money could come from the £350K we have been paying to the EU

Sorry, that's going to the NHS.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/aston-martin-warns-it-could-have-to-stop-making-cars-if-brexit-talks-fail_uk_5a0afc58e4b0bc648a0dd499?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

Why is it that only remainers can give concrete examples of the downside of Brexit?
Anyone just got a new sports car?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/george-freeman-brexit-ippr_uk_5a0aecebe4b0bc648a0dafc9?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

Needn't bother about social care if the whole of the UK will be an old people's home.

I wish I could help Bluegal, but the problem is, no-one really knew what would happen before whether we stayed or left.
Hordes of people have come forward now to explain what it meant but they were noticeably silent before the vote so if they knew then, they are at fault for not sharing.
The only thing that was absolutely certain was that the EU would make things awkward if we tried to leave and THAT is happening. If they had actually been a little more cooperative in the first place, quite possibly this situation would not have arisen.
When we first joined, it wasn't called the EU and certain fiscal standards had to be met before becoming a member. Then the machinery clunked into action and countries which did not meet the criteria were admitted -resulting in economic disaster for some and requests for bail out from others. Now they want money - and did you listen to Mr Juncker's plans for a new EU parliament, new building needing even more staff?

Aha dj and ww. The People's Republic of Brighton and Hove want a local referendum hoping to stay in the EU do they?
My daughter (Brighton resident) would approve. But not sure they stand much chance!
Can I declare a People's Republic for my part of my little village?

'Hordes of people have come forward now to explain what it meant but they were noticeably silent before the vote so if they knew then, they are at fault for not sharing.' Err; I think they did come forward but were branded as 'experts not to be listened to' or drowned out by vile gutterpress newspaper headlines. Not to mention a few worthless soundbites like 'take back control'...

It was a petition on change.org which has closed now. I think it got over three thousand votes.
You can start another one for your village, mostlyharmless.

This is the sort of thng we should be worried about.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-goldsmith/why-tertiary-legislation-hidden_b_18535692.html

When people voted to take back control, did they mean to hand it over to the PM?

The third part of the Brexit agreement which had to be settled was about EU citizens in the UK. It seems to have been forgotten about lately.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/maike-bohn/eu-citizens-rights_b_18571636.html

It doesn't look as though there is going to be any agreement this week, and even if there is, it will be impossible to sort before we leave the EU.

Was it my imagination or did I read that John Redwood, who has been agitating to leave for years, was recommending financial whizz-people should remove money from the UK as things were going to be so dire?!

Yes, there was a mention of it in parliament today, asking if they could have a debate on whether it was legal or not.

I have just read an article about the 15 MPs who were featured on the Telegraph front page, and 9 of them are lawyers. I am not surprised.

Having read through the last few pages which I did not have time to look through earlier, I now feel thoroughly depressed! Depressed because there are still some people who think that Brexit will provide a land of milk and honey; depressed because there are still so many lies being banded about; depressed because there is likely to be one hell of a cliff edge if/when we leave without a deal (TBH think there might well be a cliff edge even if we leave with a deal); depressed because so many of those areas who voted Leave (some cited on earlier posts) are going to be in one hell of a mess when we leave the EU. And who will be blamed for all this mess? The media? The government? Nigel Farage? The Russians? The 'foreigners'? How are we going to avoid a complete collapse/riots?
Incidentally, I am still awaiting an explanation of what Britain post Brexit will look like! Still no takers of my challenge...

This has been very interesting to read, more so because it has been quite civilised, probably because Russia have not registered any bots here. I always welcome views from either side, but I do get frustrated when it is still inaccuracies that are being quoted which surely people should have researched by now. The EU is not unelected, thats why we vote for MEPs. The fact that people like Farage hardly ever turned up to represent UK is hardly the EUs fault. The EU is actually more democratically elected than our own parliament. The unelected beaurocrats that are frequently mentioned are the same as our civil servants. We never lost sovereignty and we are able to make our own laws. I am still waiting to hear examples of bad EU law as the majority seem to be for rights, conditions etc for the ordinary people, we now have clean beaches etc as big corporate businesses cannot dump their polution anywhere they want etc etc
We can vote against any EU law which UK regularly does, and to be fair we have way more concessions than most other EU countries. We could always control migration, but our government decided not to. Under EU rules, unless you are self supporting, you have to return to your country of origin if you have not found work within 3 months. As we now know, no additiinal funding for NHS, Turkey joining was an outright lie and we are leaving the EU at the same time as the EU are tackling tax avoidance offshore. Now who has financed brexit........ A group of business men who do not pay EU tax. The PM has regular meetings with the likes of Murdoch, Dacre etc. Now who is in charge. Much easier to corrupt a single government, than a group of 28 governments. The EU is not perfect, however change can be made from within, but for 70 years of peace it certainly was worth it. And don't forget Russia, who wants to divide Europe. Give me the EU over being controlled by Murdoch or Putin.
Now will someone give me facts, bad laws, infact anything that can convince me I am wrong. Been waiting a long time for someone to do this. But with everything that I have said, there can be no price better than the peace we have enjoyed.

Morgana we must have been typing at the same time as I seem to have repeated your comments. Sorry

Worth repeating, though.

The EU are not negotiating in good faith. Their Chief Negotiator, Barnier apparently does not even have the authority from the 27 to give us what we want. They are not negotiating based on what is mutually beneficial economically and financially etc., because their strategy is about Punishment, Revenge and Deterrent. Punishing us for daring to even have a referendum in the first place, getting revenge for having the audacity to vote leave and deterrent to make sure we get a worse deal after Brexit than before to stop any other countries from even thinking of leaving too, as they are absolutely terrified that the domino effect of others leaving for a better deal would collapse the whole European Project like the dodgily built house of cards that it is!

We went wrong on day 1 by agreeing to discuss a 'divorce' bill before we even got to talks on a trade deal. The two are inextricably linked and should be being dealt with together. Why would we even agree to pay anything let alone the £20b the PM offered without knowing what trade deal we would get in return? We also let the Remainers get away with Project Fear 2 by calling the choices Hard or Soft Brexit after the vote to leave. Soft Brexit sounds nice and easy and cuddly, but is not Brexit at all, while hard sounds difficult, problematic and dangerous, but in reality just means the proper Brexit that most of us voted for. But as few seem to understand Brexit, the Remainers hope that people will go for what sounds like the easier, safer option. They have delayed and procrastinated, whilst shamefully saying that they respect the result of the referendum and just want the best possible deal for Britain, when these wolves in sheep's clothing want to delay things as much as possible in the hope of a second referendum. However they know that the British people won't wear one yet, as it is really too soon to just ignore our majority wishes and just carry on in their usual arrogant manner as they would like. So they actually would like the EU to offer us a really appalling deal, so they could say we told you so and have Parliament vote against the deal and then they can call for a second referendum to reverse the Brexit vote.

We should offer them NOTHING and see them come crawling back for the £20b we already offered, as without our contributions the net contributors (of which we are one) would have to pay more and the net beneficiaries would lose out too, getting less or even becoming net contributors. Legally they have no case for us paying them anything in fact I would argue that as net contributors for many years we are due a refund of billions, plus a share of the ECB and other assets like property. But if they asked nicely I might just agree to waive this for an excellent trade deal!

If not tell them we are Unilaterally Declaring Independence in 6 months say, when we will revert to WTO rules or any other mutually beneficial sweet-heart deals that we can agree before then. We should lower Corporation Tax to 10% or what ever is necessary to encourage many firms to relocate here from Europe and to pay their taxes here. We should negotiate trade deal with America and China etc.,. signing Memorandums of Understanding on Trade before the leave date and signing them on day one after leaving. If we do this what can they do? Kick us out?! Try to get the ECJ to fine us?! A court we will have already stated that we no longer recognise?!

If people had any idea what was coming in Europe economically, financially, politically, militarily, terrorism wise, immigration wise and otherwise the Brexiteers would have triumphed with over 90% of the vote. Britain may experience short or even medium term pain with Brexit, but ultimately we will be masters of our own fate, well placed to be an oasis of calm in a sea of absolute chaos, thriving, prosperous and a proud independent, sovereign nation once again.

'If people had any idea what was coming in Europe economically, financially, politically, militarily, terrorism wise, immigration wise and otherwise the Brexiteers would have triumphed with over 90% of the vote'. Can you tell me exactly what is going to happen, then, as you must have some sort of inside information that the rest of us don't have. With regards China, I thought the EU had negotiated trade deals with them on our behalf?