BREXIT? Am I just plain stupid?

Putin wanted us to leave the EU as he prefers to do deals with single entities rather than a large group.
Strangely enough, I have yet to hear a Brexiteer say we can have lots of trade deals with Russia.

The talk of EU laws as oppressive ignores the huge benefits of having certain kinds of rules uniform across the EU. It just isn't true that we're automatically better off making our own rules. One aspect of this is that if every country made its own rules on product safety, then to sell a product throughout Europe, it would have to be certified separately for each country. Uniform regulation is a requirement for free movement of goods, a vitally important factor for manufacturers. Maintaining high product standards is likewise vitally important for ordinary people, because without uniform regulations, there is liable to be a race to the bottom, resulting in inferior products in sectors where it is impossible for consumers to make informed judgements, such as drugs. And so on.

Mamie

Then according to your list of options there is only a choice of 1 or 4 and they are only at this stage conjecture.

counterpoint so one Leave voter, a man who is known for his dubious behaviour and should not even be an MP, is used to smear all Leave voters.
I have put up links to articles giving clear and rational explanations for the Leave position but they have not been commented on and I doubt many Remainers if any bothered to read them.
There is little point in trying to have a debate here as people's minds are closed. The arguments used for Remain often include those which could equally be those for Leave - such as the lack of proper provision or thought for the process needed for a Country that chose to Leave. That is not a reason to stay.

As more facts come out about Brexit the less tenable it becomes. The referendum was unbelievably divisive allowing a lot of national unpleasantness to get an airing. Brexit is highly likely to fall apart next year because of the effect on prices, unworkable customs procedures, unmasking of the master Brexiteers, the Irish Question and many more impacts. In other words it's a total mess with no benefits to the country whatsoever. Virtually everything clarioned by the leave has been shown to be misleading and in many cases totally untrue.

The hardline Brexiteers are running scared and do not know how to admit that they may be wrong. the "will of the People" mantra referring back to the 17 million does not take into account just how many lies they were fed. It is only the Tory right wing who for reasons best known to themselves actually think Brexit should continue.

No POGS EEA / EFTA would still be possible because the UK would then stay in CU / SM.
It is the regulatory framework that applies here.

jaycee I have looked back on this thread and can’t find any links that you have posted. I would be interested to read them.

I can't remember who it was in yesterday's debate, Mamie, who said that article 50 does not remove us ftom the EEA. There is a separate letter that needs to be sent to remove us from that.
It was quite a long speech.

pogs mamie is correct. I have read the same. We have been told that we must use an existing scheme or nothing. Now whether in the long run that proves to be the case we shall see, but mamie is correct.

Isn't a reason to stay that we quite liked things as they were; that we see ourselves as Europeans rather than UK citizens, and we do not want other EU citizens to feel that they are unwanted?

That was Heidi Alexander. No we will still belong to the EEA and need to revoke I think 127 charter to leave that.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-01/the-truth-about-the-10-biggest-brexit-myths-of-the-moment

This is worth reading.

Yes, we get back more from the EU than we put in. It's very short-sighted to look only at our contributions to the budget, our "membership fee". It's a much bigger picture. By being in the EU we enable London to be the financial centre of Europe, with all the income that generates. Unfortunately the ardent Leavers can only see the falses promises of more jobs in their own communities, less pressure on schools and NHS, more care for the elderly. But none of that is likely to happen, certainly not in the next ten years.

join the club!! I, too, voted remain because I was not prepared to vote for what might happen in the future when none of it was clearly laid out.
what a mess.

I can’t really see why brexiters are happy with the Horlicks that are the brexit talks. Do you know something we don’t?

Places like Grimsby and Cornwall thought that leaving the EU was a great idea and voted overwhelming for it - now the reality penny is dropping and they have realised how bad it is particularly for their regions. Now these these areas have asked for monetary assistance and also to be allowed to have migrant labour etc. Grimsby wants to be excluded from Brexit as 70% of the business there is imported fish from the EU .
If the whole thing wasn't so bad for the rest of us I would be inclined to say to them that it is the will of the people just get on with it - but I also feel sorry for the way they were duped and maybe now they will realise that in a strange way the EU policies worked fine for them.

If you look up Brexit Central , they give regular updates , on who said what, where and when, more reliable than bias media putting their own spin on things which confuses everyone.

Sorry? Brexit central was set up by pro-leave.
How is that unbiased?

Every person on the team was a member at the top of VoteLeave, apart from one who set up BeLeave.

Unbiased? Do you know what that word means?

I am glad I have so many GN friends who are like me.This evening there is a Brexit meeting at our local British Club (I live n Sweden) this is intended to tell people what the propositions are for us mortals who are British subjects in the EU,this is being led by the British Ambassador, however there is also an EU Summit meeting in Gothenburg tomorrow, and because the delegates are arriving all day today, half of the City is cordened off, so many of us cant even get to this information meeting.I hope the Brexit experts in the EU plan things better! I probably wouldnt understand what it is all about anyway!

Completely agree dj (11:47 post)

The first point is that there is nothing in all this about fairness, except the waffle on fairness by politicians on both sides. We want out costing us as little as possible; they agree to us going as long as we pay dearly for the privilege. There is the possibility that we will not come to any agreement, in which case we will not have to pay them but they will make life for us as difficult as possible.

The point has been made that this is a 27 to 1 battle. That means in effect that all 27 have to agree to anything that is final. We just have to get a majority in Westminster to agree. Neither of these two are easy.

Most of us who voted to leave never expected it to be easy. Why? Because of our experience over all the years we have been in, not least the legal cases that have disturbed us. Being that 1 against 27 never did seem a good position to be in when they have a legal system very different to ours.

Of course there will be positive and negative results; but when we are out we will not be tied to their rules and regulations, unless we agree with them, and we will be free to control our own affairs as we wish.

There is a lot of doom mongering over here through the media and other outlets. That has been so strong that it is the one thing that most people hear. We cannot know in advance what will happen until either we have an agreement or we are leaving without one. At that time many things will be crystalised and we will be able to assess out position for the future.

I didn't understand the implications of in or out when voting, it appears I wasn't the only one... but I guess that is what politicians wanted. Now when I hear the word Brexit I just hear the rest of the sentence as la de la de la. I have given up.

That is the problem- don't think the general public understand at all what the actual implications are it is far too complex. Should never have had a referendum in the first place - a vote winner by Cameron that in my opinion went badly wrong.

4. All EU Countries Must Approve the Final Brexit Deal

INCORRECT. The deal—which would also include any transitional arrangement—needs to be approved by the U.K., the European Parliament and what’s called a “qualified majority” of EU governments. Under current rules, that means the deal would have to be supported by 20 of the 27 EU governments; but they can’t be the smallest 20 countries because they have to represent 65 percent of the EU-27 population.

From the Bloomberg article at 11:49