Gender critical trans woman

Nelliemoser thank you, no worries. This is the first chance I've had to return to this topic and I am really pleased to see it being taken up as a serious debate. I spent about an hour trying to understand the subject and I became more worried by the moment.

It's a long time since I've done any academic work and apologies if what I wrote came over as that. But relating to that, if you watch the video on the Gendered Intelligence page that I linked to, the Tedtalk man is presenting the subject in exactly those terms, buttressing his argument by mentioning Plato and other significant historical/philosophical figures to suggest that 'gender fluidity' (what a term!) is somehow the norm and any of us who think differently are backward and even bigoted.

If you look at the organisation Gendered Intelligence you will see that they are nothing more than a bunch of people who have set themselves up to lobby and yet they have somehow gained a government ear and are being consulted on the issue of transitioning. I don't know if anyone has looked at the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) website and their information pack for schools but yet again, here we have a government body which is already stressing that gender fluidity is the norm. This could mean that a girl who objected to a boy who claimed to be transitioning coming into her school toilets, because she was upset or frightened, could/would be accused of a hate crime. Seriously, here is the link again: www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/cps_lgbt_teacher_pack.pdf

I apologise for being inarticulate. maryeliza has done a great job of being clear on this important issue. Something is happening under our noses that I think is just going to corrupt our children. And paddyann, just because you know two young people who are taking a big step that looks all squeaky clean, that doesn't mean that the situation is ok for everyone, everywhere. You say how good it is that they can be 'normal'. Well what does that mean? Does it mean that others who are happy with their gender but uncomfortable with boys who appear to be girls are abnormal? I think it's normal for young people to experiment with their identity and these days there is more freedom than ever to do that in all sorts of ways but it's for adults to protect young people from things going too far not aid them to live a medically constructed alternative life which they may one day come to regret.

Well said Azie09. Excellent post.

Danielle Muscato is a very bad example to choose. The man is a troll. Real trans people will at least be trying to live in the way they feel they should.

It's all gone bonkers. I don't want to share changing rooms or loos with males.
Disgusted with John Lewis for having gender free clothing. I won't be getting any of it. Whoever thought tastes a good idea has lostvtgecpkotl think we are all capable of choosing what we want to buy.
Are we all eventually going to be one big gender less sex, how boring.

I don't think we're going to be genderless Luckylegs, I filled in a NT volunteer questionnaire early this weeks and there was a bit on gender orientation. I think there were at least six options and heterosexual was well down the list. When I was young there were only two sexes. Life was so much simpler then. I really don't care what a person's sexual orientation is or what bits they've got, (and I don't share changing rooms with strangers). I just want to know if they want to be called he or she.

ygg - have you read up on the radical transactivists? There's plenty more where DM came from. There's a world of difference between someone who genuinely transitions and the ones who are driving the self-identification changes.

I suggested a family member bought an item from John Lewis and they said " we no longer shop there because of their policy on gender free clothing ".
I do not want to take GC into toilet facilities that are shared nor do I want to use them myself.

The NT form seems to be muddling up gender and sexuality- surely being heterosexual is abut your sexuality?

Quite, maryeliza. I think they're jumping on a bandwagon. I can't get back into the questionnaire now I've done it to check the wording - and it was a long questionnaire! There was an option not to complete that bit and I think a lot won't objecting to its relevance to volunteering for the Trust.

I really don't like hearing of parents encouraging their children to choose their sex before they've reached puberty. I was a complete tomboy and only played with boys when I was little and wanted to be a boy. Cowboys and Indians and car racing was much preferable to dolls and tea parties. Loved helping my dad fix the car and was never discouraged from doing 'boy' things, but when I got to 11/12 I was definitely a girl (with car maintenance ability)
DD1 was the same. Played with cars and her Cindy doll stole DS's Action Man's guns. She's now pushing the glass ceiling at her company and is all woman and proud of it. How on earth can they tell which way their children will go?

As to unisex loos don't bother me much if they're kept clean and the urinals (if they have to have them) are at the back. I remember using a village communal loo in France thirty odd years ago - with the children - and having to walk past men at urinals. And no wash basins. We were desperate! Only the presence of other women reassured me we were in the right place.

Thanks to GOL and azie for the factual information. More legislation seems unnecessary, we have hate crimes that would cover any verbal or physical attacks. This all seems ill thought out and overly hasty to me.
I agree with most posters about the concerns here. A word in support of John Lewis though - what on earth is wrong with not labelling clothes for boys/girls? I've been increasingly bothered by walking through JL children section only to see unicorns and pink frills on one side and decent clothes for playing in on the other. The same with toys - the girls section these days has only included prams, dolls and other traditional girls toys. Even paper, pens and paints are pink and sparkly. All the more interesting stuff, that I'd call gender free (if I'm using the term correctly) is firmly in whats called the boys section,
Some stages of development mean children identify with their gender more strongly. Its part of growing up but we shouldn't impose such strict nonsense on our children.

I'm reminded of a 4 year-old boy I once met, son of a friend of a friend. He was extremely 'girly' - totally obsessed with all things culturally identified with girls, e.g. Barbie, pink, dressing-up etc. I only met the mother, not father, and she seemed quite normal and down to earth and there were no siblings so I just don't know where his behaviour came from.

My friend met him when he was about 10 and said he was much the same. Same friend has just seen him again - he's now late-20s and by all accounts a charming young man, living happily in a long-term gay relationship.

Today he'd be steered towards delaying puberty medication, hormones and possible mutilating surgery.

'Gender-free clothes' - surely that will result in clothes that don't fit anyone?

Good post Iam - I remember when my dd was small often buying 'boys' clothes for her in M&S as they were just so much more practical. Last Christmas I bought gilets for my dgs in their favourite colours - the little one likes purple and I had to search under 'girls' to find one is this colour. I'd love to walk into a shop which just had, for example, gilets organised by size and in a range of colours. It's quite disturbing that some people think there is something wrong with that.

Bagatelle how does a gilet or a jumper for a three year old boy differ from one for a three year old girl?

For anyone who is unconcerned about sharing women-only facilities with anyone who fancies using them I'd recommend a look through a Facebook page called This Never Happens (a phrase commonly used to tell us we're all unnecessarily worried about it) which details attacks on women by transwomen including the recent one at Speakers Corner in which a 60-year old woman was punched in the face by a young, tall, male-bodied person who objected to what she was saying.

I am also concerned about what will be seen as a rise in criminal acts, including sex crimes, by women who are in fact transwomen. We already see headlines such as 'woman rapist convicted' when it is in fact a male person. But official data will show that the criminal offence was committed by a woman, and this will skew future statistics on female criminality. How long before we see newspaper stories about the worrying rise in crimes, especially sex crimes, committed by women?

Already transwomen who have committed crimes, many of whom have not had complete gender reassignment surgery, want the right to serve their prison sentences in women's prisons. There have been concerning sexual assaults on (and sexual relationships with) vulnerable women prisoners by transwomen in female jails. Ian Huntley, serving a life sentence for murdering two young girls, and with a long history of abuse of young women and girls, is now saying he wishes to be called Lianne. I wonder why?

Transmen and transwomen have the right to equal treatment and to live their lives in peace and freedom. But women's safety and hard-won rights must be protected too -- we must not throw women under the bus to placate an influential minority.

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maryeliza54 I wasn't thinking about toddlers. I have enough trouble getting jeans with a waist. We're all different shapes and sizes and I buy men's jumpers because they have longer sleeves than women's. They are often available in pink, so that's OK.

My granddaughter, aged three, is slim but has very long legs and totally different body proportions from her boy cousin of the same age. She has a preference for feminine clothes and is very good at Lego.

SiobhanSharpe "we must not throw women under the bus to placate an influential minority" - agreed.

I think you all have a victim mentality,how else can you explain how so many are so worried about things that are very rare .Live and let live for goodness sake .One woman gets punched for being objectionable and thats the example of Transgender you HAVE to highlight .You're more likely to get run doen by a car or fall down your stairs at home than be attacked by someone transitioning.Why on earth do you panic about something thats unlikely to happen.Were you all so panicked about the gay lib movement ? Did you think gay man /women were all perverts or peadophiles? NOBODY is forcing young people to change gender ...its a CHOICE .It in the main doesn't involve anyone but the person having the treatment .I'll bet you've been in public loos where there were trans people and you didn't even know it

paddy this is absolutely NOTHING to do with gay rights AT ALL and I absolutely refute any suggestion at all that I ( and I expect many others on this thread) EVER used the words pervert and paedeophile when discussing issues around gay liberation. How very dare you slur those of us who are critical of radical trans activists in this way? You should be ashamed of yourself.

And for the nth time, we are not discussing those receiving treatment but those who want to remain intact - FGS don't you see the difference?

GOB - what a brilliant post - thank you so much for taking the time to explain it all. It's a topic that's been worrying me, especially the difficulty in opposing this legislation - it's being steam-rollered through - and the TERFs & their supporters are finding it difficult to hold meetings without disruption. Anyone who opposes the proposed Gender Recognition Act is accused of trans-phobia - and as another poster mentioned - an academic psychologist who wanted to study de-transitioning (i.e. transitioning back again to the original gender - a phenomenon that has increased as more people are persuaded into transitioning) was turned down because it is "politically incorrect".
The whole situation is deeply troubling.

My daughter was always what society would call "tomboy" and less than interested in societies view of traditional "girlie" stuff! As an adult , after a few years, she told us she was a lesbian. No problem for us atall but interesting some of the negative stuff she and her partner have to put up with even now, despite such huge progress in society re LBGT . I suspect it is even worse for Trans !

Lu kylegs9 what on earth has John Lewis and gender free clothing got to do with this?

Thinking on further from my last post, and reading others here, it is pretty concerning that a girl objecting to a boy who identifies as a girl being in the toilets with her, could be accused of a hate crime ...serious imbalance on "rights" with that one!
And then I remember a close friend of my brothers, big bloke, transitioned to a woman after marriage and 2 children, had all operations etc ....huge efforts to become more feminine with only some success ...dressed as a woman (a bit exaggeratedly so as can be the case), nice person. He would NOT have been safe using a mans toilet methinks!!

maryeliza54 sorry did not see your post saying not discussing those receiving treatment! Trouble is I think some are, some aren't !