Has Germany now changed? And France? And possibly Belgium?

Margaret it is probably obvious to anybody that the geography of German cities is an area where I "need to try harder"!!
I know the places I know, if you see what I mean - Hamburg, the Rhine area around Koblenz, Leipzig, Dresden and Berlin and although I did once drive from Hamburg to Hannover, I always think motorways show you nothing of the geography of a country.
I did actually au pair just outside Suttgart when I was 18 but never got the chance to venture outside the city.
I must try harder
I must try harder
I must try harder...........

Our daughter has lived in Berlin for the last ten years and is in the process of applying for German citizenship. She loves her life there and is currently working in a refugee camp in Munich. She has many friends of all nationalities as Berlin has a lot of young people from all over the world living there and is very involved with helping refugees.
She has a Syrian refugee living with her and her husband in their ( tiny) flat as do many other people. Germans have been sorely tested Recently but still seem determined to welcome these newcomers wherever they come from. All credit to them, but these are unsettling times not only for Germany but for us all.

To be honest Daphne I have to check place names in German because lots of them end in ...burg, ...berg, ...bach. French towns seem easier to know because they sound so individual, but even they get complicated when so many begin with "Saint." And let's not get started on Welsh town names!

* re to granjura,

well I live very closed to Düsseldorf means the center of Germany.

Re to be born and raised as a Prussian means I learned all the Prussian virtues which characterized Germany till the end of the 70s.

I have never been to the UK in my life but I had closed contacts to member of the BFG ( British Forces Germany )so I learned a tiny bit of the British mentality.
As far as it concerns the situation we live in I would like to answer it with an English expression;
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Which I would like to extend by my own definition; keep politicians, banker and skunks at distance, never ever trust them.

Ooh as the granddaughter of very loving but OMG strict (East) Prussian grandparents, deMichael I would be wary of lauding "Prussian virtues " in the same way that people speak glibly of Victorian values, forgetting all the hypocrisy, misery, exploitation, intransigence, grinding poverty of the seamy underbelly of the Victorian era.
I also absolutely disagree from my own perspective of visits to Germany to my GPs who had relocated to near Osnabrück through to 1968 that these "Prussian" values were typical of Germany through the to the 70's. Of that generation perhaps, but not my own teenage and young adult contemporaries
Earlier up thread you said Prussia still exists because we still have Berlin and Potsdam etc. I found Potsdam very beautiful when I visited on several occasions and see Berlin a vibrant, cosmopolitan, "happening" trendy city now the very antithesis of the city as conceived in its Prussian heyday.
The thing I find about modern Germany is how unGerman things seem nowadays. Yes the trains still run on time and litter is absolutely frowned on, but the stiff, formal society of my childhood is no more. Germany has become a truly modern European country and while my experience does not include the most recent events since 2014, it seems to me a country which neither my mother or my grandparents would recognise today.

By the way, has deMichael changed his name to VonMichael, who is also posting about Prussia?

Or vice versa?

Look out for von und zu Michael

Daphne You are so right. I married a man from Munich and lived my first 6 months in a small town near there. I was so English then. One day shaking my tablecloth out at the balcony I looked up and saw the Alps Panarama on the horizen where nothing had been before.
It was summer and I was fresh out of Sheffield -notknown for its beauty) and thought I had landed in paradise. The cornfields edged with dark green woods, the mountains in the distance,the little towns and villages I suppose I fell in love with Germany then.
The people were a bit stiff, my MIL jealous,the language hard to master, but I coped.
Now the generation of my children and grandchildren are so friendly and natural.

von XXXX = belongs to an aristocratic family. Some like to use it others leave it off- it looks nice on a business card but
there were so many, who had houses and land in the old GDR and Poland. Its not important now

A friend of ours here in Switzerland, married to a Swiss- comes from one of those old Von XXXX families from the old GDR. He was born here and a few years back they went to the small town where is family hailed from- and stopped at the Café below the Castle that belonged to his family.

He is the spitting image of his grandfather - and when they got there they were all spooked like mad- he never said a word- his wife ordered the meal with a strong French accent. And they left- leaving them all aghast and the town saying they had just seen the ghost of the old VonXXXX ... they waited until they were out of town on their motorbike before they laughed and laughed. I bet the villagers are still talking about it.

As Margaret says- totally irrelevant to 'heutzutage' Germany.

*DaphneBroon

Well we have come to a historical factor as you mention Victorian values and Prussian virtues.
Victorian values were given and designed for the aristocracy whereas the Prussian virtues were penetrated down to each citizen in the street.
May I remember you to the fact, to keep a stiff upper lip belongs to the good manner and is still part of the upper class. English people will have a good reason why both the monarchy and aristocracy are still adored. You still have your elite same as we have here in Germany which are closed circles and have great influence in science, economics, industry and other parts of our society and life. Means, I don't see sharp distinctions between our two countries. People from the UK were always welcome here ( except those soccer fans ) and it was said before no discrimination was given to them. Many of the English military personnel were not pleased to get called back to other destinations in the world. Many returned to Germany after their military service was finished. They must have good reasons for their decision as I presume??
No this forum is named Gransnet which means to me we all have learned our lesson, we received social rules and regulations so we are better off than our parents were cos we can learn from each other.

But deMichael, learning lessons has nothing to do with longevity, in fact today's younger German generation seems to have grasped the enormity of the current situation in next to no time if reports are to be believed.

The German aristocracy. Maybe there are some with a great deal of money but those from the GDR or Poland had unsuitable houses when it came to reselling them. I know a couple of'von' and they had an island with huge house and paddock etc. The kept on going back for holidays until the children rebelled and one day at Bridge club I overheard him say. Take X with you and give the damm thing away or leave it to rot. Which is what they have done.
Its true Germans and English do get on well together.A lot of germans remained in the UK after the war when they were free. They couldn't face war-torn Germany
I didn't understand that about Granset, I joined bacause I'm a gran and it has been very helpful and interesting whether concerning politics or thinnng hair or grandchildren who are being awkward not to mention husbands and all their faults.

Well we have come to a historical factor as you mention Victorian values and Prussian virtues.
Victorian values were given and designed for the aristocracy whereas the Prussian virtues were penetrated down to each citizen in the street

Sorry, deMichael even allowing for a certain amount to have been " lost in translation", I cannot agree that you have understood "Victorian values".
The Victorian era while still enjoying the privileged position of the aristocracy, saw the rise of the professional and mercantile middle classes, the engineers, scientists, explorers, innovators, manufacturers, industrial giants etc. Your Prince Albert was a huge influence in this respect.
Really not sure what else you are getting at, but glad you acknowledge the closeness between our two countries and the progress which has been made in mutual cooperation.
I do not think anybody of whichever nation should hark back to "times gone by" but should be embracing the good things our new society brings and endeavouring to do all we can to indeed learn the lessons of history and not make the same mistakes.

I do know the Victorians were prudish andwhen I went to live in Germany finally I was surprised to find quite another view of some things.
My Mil was not all prudish and I noticed at a lake a young man stripping off his wet suit after surfing. No fussing behind a towel. Naked bathing or neigbours lying topless in the sun was just part of daily life and of course breast feeding anyhwere.

This is now not so easy with migrants who have never even seen a woman without clothing. Things will change but mixed Sauna will continue, the rules being not to stare.

If our von-Micheal thinks he can understsnd the English from the mindset of those who were stationed in Germany then he is wrong. You have to go to the country itself and live there at least 6 weeks with non army people to start to get to know another nation.
After 40 years there are still things I don't understsnd about the German psyche.

I'm confused. Is vonmichael also deMichael?

That is what I asked, but I didn't really get an answer.

Sorry Elegran, I'm not thinking clearly today and had forgotten about your post from yesterday.

Too similar for coincidence
Which was why Insaid a Look out for "von und zu Michael" next!

Bloody iPad!!
"I said Look out" etc

6 weeks in one location won't give you a real feel for a country MargaretX.

Someone who spends 6 weeks in Dartmouth will have a very different experience to someone spending same 6 weeks in Peckham or Richmond- and even in, say, Yorkshire, very different in Harrogate or Bradford.

I lived in the UK for 39 years, several locations in London, then Satffs and several locations in Leics. And the UK is a VERY different country now to what it was in 1970- well perhaps not in the Cotswolds or South Devon.

Merkel was a fool stating an open door policy, an absolute fool. Its all going to crumble around her ears and I for one am delighted.

GranJ you and I know that it takes more, but vonM had not even been to the UK. Just played table tennis or similar with those soldiers based in Germmany.

I found 6 weeks or two months enough to get into the feel of the language but personally I would say that unless you marry into a family, full integration is impossible

^ well perhaps not in the Cotswolds or South Devon.^
I think South Devon is very different to what it was like in the late 1960s, early 1970s when I first arrived as a 'furriner'.