little Englander

You might dismiss it as a myth, Anniebach, but I have experienced something similar in Anglesey. In my case the place was a pub, and the chatter at the table next to ours was predominantly English until DH started asking us for our choice of drink when it became Welsh. So not really a myth, but definitely appalling manners even if they did want to discuss something not for our ears!

Welsh is the first language on Anglesey, why would a group of people talk in their second language when on their own but switch to their first language when strangers entered the room? Does this happen in other countries? Do the French talk in English but switch to French if joined by English people ? How come I only hear of this switching of languages by English people visiting Wales? No other country.

Appalling manners not to doesk English when English people are present , too funny

Exactly Annie. It is a stupid myth. But my friend is adamant that she has experienced it.
I have lived in England for a long time and go to Wales very often. You would think I would have experienced that, but I haven't.

Read the posts again, ab It is not about not speaking English when English people are present, it is about changing from English into Welsh as soon as the English people come in. That wouldn't bother me as I would think they were discussing something private, and fair enough, but if they are just discussing the weather, why the secrecy? Why the change?

If they had been speaking Welsh to start with and continued to do so - no problem.

The Severn Bridge is due to transfer ownership to the UK Govt probably as early as Autumn of next year - then the building costs will have been repaid - seems this is happening sooner than originally thought due to extra traffic using the crossing meaning the money has been collected sooner. It seems that once to Govt owns the bridge there will be no need to charge VAT on the crossing charge and also there will be no further building cost left to pay off. With any luck we could see the price of crossing reducing - seems the idea of only one set of toll booths was to prevent a build up of traffic on the bridge waiting to pay.

Elegran, I have no need to read the posts again, I await an answer, why would people speak in their second language then switch to their first language

I don't think anyone has suggested they should, ab. The issue seems to be that some presumably bilingual Welsh people change from English to Welsh when English speakers with English accents appear. Whether that is true is a separate issue from whether it would be rude to do it just because English-sounding people have arrived.

Which it would, of course.

I am not suggesting it happens.

But why shouldn't they change to Welsh if they are having a private conversation they would rather not others to understand. We do that all the time (well not Welsh...). Now that would be very different if the English people were joining their party at their table, of course- but they were at another table and unrelated- so fair enough ... their conversation had nothing to do with the new comers!

Thinking of it we just did this today. In a restaurant at an isolated table, and DH and I were speaking about my brother being so poorly (we visited him in hospital yesterday) - just happened to be speaking in French. Another couple came to sit at the table right next to us- so we naturally switched to English, without thinking about it- as we didn't think my brother's medical problems and is colostomy bag were necessarily something we wanted to share with others. Nothing rude about it.

And when we went to see my brother and his wife arrived, they spoke in French as we were here- but as she was leaving, as they had some complicated arrangements to discuss, they switched to Spanish (her language)- and then back to French. My parents always spoke in German when they didn't want us kids to know what they were saying (a massive incentive to learn languages ;) ). If you live permanently in a bilingual, trilingual +++ family- switching all the time is normal- and we don't even notice we are doing it half the time.

This btw is not 'showing off' - just a way of life for many of us.

In the scenario you give, gj, I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all, but I can understand people gettng the wrong impression especially as there has been, in the past at any rate, a good deal of anti-English feeling in Wales, not least because of lingering resentment about being invaded by the English (and Normans, as the English were too) and because of things like English people buying second homes/holiday homes in Wales and pricing locals out.

Can't say I even noticed a language switch myself when in Wales. Especially in north Wales I'd expect to hear Welsh being spoken. I shouldn't have thought people in touristy parts of Wales would be deliberately rude. They depend on tourists for some of their income, after all.

I had a different experience when visiting N Wales. Shop assistants, waiters and friendly people kept addressing me in Welsh. When I said I was sorry but I had no Welsh, they immediately switched to English and apologised to me saying that they had spoken in Welsh because I looked Welsh. I took that as a compliment!

Strangely, no one spoke to DH in Welsh and we wondered if that was because he has a beard? The only other beardie that we saw or met in N Wales was an Irishman on holiday like us. He came over to our table to enquire if we were Welsh and he was not at all surprised that we were Scottish. He had a theory that it was not his thick Irish accent that was making people look at him strangely but rather that beards seemed to be rare in N Wales.

Understand that- and the bad feelings in Wales re second homes, etc - same happens here in the Alps where the locals can't afford to live anymore and neither can the workers in the Tourims industry, who all have to commute up from the Valley where rentals are much cheaper. Many of the touristy valleys in Switzerland still have their own dialects, and if locals want to speak about private things, or make derogatory comments about the tourists (be they Swiss, British or whatever) they will switch to dialect and make it very clear- and laugh loudly- happens all over the world, truly, We go to non touristy Tuscany every year, and they will speak dialect if they don't want to make a point- and same happens in Sicily too- as said, all over the world.

People who live in touristy areas often have a 'love/hate' relationship with the tourists. Yes, they need them- but yes, they hate them too- for their wads or cash, luxury châlets/appartments which are empty most of the year, mostly their superrior arrogance and so much more.

Another thing which causes some to have a problem with some English is being classed as ill mannered for speaking in one's first language as the people in Anglesey do .

The invasion by the Normans doesn't concern me, the flooding of Capel Celyn still angers me ,

Seems when in England you must speak English, when in another country the citizens must speak English

Granny23 we are off to N Wales in a few weeks.My son has a big beard, fashionable in London at the moment. Luckily he has a Welsh name and so do my DGDs. I' ll just have to keep addressing them by name then isn't ?

For Heaven's sake, Anniebach, do you always have to be so bloody touchy? For what it's worth, my father was born just outside Caernarvon (Pen y Groes to be precise), so I can claim Welsh blood too, and we spent the whole of August in Trearddur Bay in Anglesey every year until I left home. The story I told was true, why would I make it up? Granjura's theory was probably right, can you not just accept the fact that sometimes things do happen?

Totally unfair comment Ceesnan, as it was you who wrote:

* 'but definitely appalling manners* even if they did want to discuss something not for our ears!'

it was your complaint and not annib, was it not?

Having Welsh (whatever ...) blood and going on hols there is an awful lot different to being born and bred and lived all your life there- and so are the experiences that go with them, surely!

Correction for my previous post 'to make a point' of course.

This is all a bit puzzling. If the people in the pub or wherever were speaking English until the English arrived at the next table, then presumably English was their language of choice, not Welsh; ergo English was their first language, not Welsh.

Two points: first I am half English, half Welsh. Second, I have never encountered any anti-English feeling in North or South Wales. The only switch from English to Welsh in my presence that I have ever encountered was fifty years ago, when the exhaust fell off my Hillman Imp and two garage mechanics discussed the welding job between themselves in their own language. And they fixed it at a reasonable price.

So you speak Welsh Cessan with your father being a CaernaFonshire man?

Eh? How on earth does your mind work, annie? Why should Ceesnan speak Welsh, just because her father was born in Wales...?

grumppa, if fluent Welsh speakers , and they must have been to engage as a group in a conversation , why would they speak in their second language

I am so pleased you have never encountered anti English feeling in Wales, we are a very friendly country , I have never witnessed it but have experienced anti welsh attacks in Wales and England and some vicious ones on forums

Also pleased your exhaust was fixed ,

Because Ana, it is usual for a Welsh parent to speak Welsh to their child, Welsh is widely spoken in CaernaFonshire , half my lot were from Anglesey and I spoke Welsh before English

So what you're saying, annie, is that Ceesnan is lying. Charming.