little Englander

But Cwm means valley, that would start a battle between North and South Wales

Misprint: Cymglish!

Alea I wasn't alluding to Scottish football fans per se as louts but ANY football fan who behaves badly, they could well have been English, or Italian, or Turkish, All of whom I believe have gone right over the top at times. Yes I am well aware of the Chelsea fans in Paris, that is exactly what I mean by loutish behaviour. The incident I referred to happened when I was 18, and I hadn't experienced football rowdiness before It was a horrible experience and was written up in The Evening Standard. They piled on to tubes and were generally massing in the West End in quite an aggressive way, well oiled and many of us were having to run the gauntlet getting past them. I don't give a toss about football, but I don't think it's too much to expect fans where ever they are from not to behave in a way that alarms those around them.

Following on from your experience Maggiemaybe husband had a similar experience in Edinburgh whilst playing golf with his oldest and closest friend who is Scottish. An acquaintance of this friend came over in the club house and when the friend introduced my husband to acquaintance "this is so and so from London", acquaintance turned on his heel and walked off without uttering a word

The thing that constantly annoys me is the 'Bank of England' when it should be called the 'Bank of the United Kingdom'. My annoyance is not for 'nationalistic' reasons per sae, but because it causes such confusion and reinforces the misconception that England somehow subsidies the other 3 Nations. Scotland has never had a National Bank. The (now subsumed into Lloyds group) Bank of Scotland is just an ordinary commercial bank, Clydesdale Bank is owned by an Australian bank and the infamous Royal Bank of Scotland is a global conglomerate. However the mantra that the bank of ENGLAND bailed out the SCOTTISH banks persists.

As to speaking 'Scottish' - I slip easily from one to the other. Standard English in mixed company (especially for my French and Lithuanian friends) fairly broad Scots with my family and Scottish friends). There are of course, certain Scottish words (e.g. driech, gloaming, sleekit, shelpit) which do not have an exact standard English equivalent , and regional variations dependent on 'Furry Boots' yer from, just as their are big regional variations across the rest of the UK.

the Scots at times descend on our capital for football matches and they would rampage around London in a truly appalling manner, drunk, loud, abusive

That was what you SAIDTerribull , not "English, Italian or Turkish football fans".
If you don't mean it to apply to the Scots then don't flippin' say it.

God I can't believe you are dissecting my post in such an aggressive way. I reiterate - I was young 18, this was my first experience of football hooliganism, it wasn't very nice, they were drunk, trying to get past them was in my experience was running the gauntlet. I found it very alarming at the time. Perhaps I should have chosen my words slightly more carefully, to reflect that on occasions football fans behave badly. THEY COULD COME FROM ANYWHERE, BUT IN THAT INSTANCE they were Scottish, but that's not to say they reflect the behaviour of 4 million Scottish people anymore than the man who snubbed by husband in the golf club

I understood that terribull didn't mean that all Scots are loutish. We need to remember when reading each other's posts that we're not writing perfect essays, just chatting, and sometimes a thing doesn't come out right because we've missed out a small word like "some". It's easily done. Also easily forgiven if one isn't determined to find fault.

DB told me a tale years ago about someone he knew who stopped with his family in a Welsh pub on his way home to England from holiday. In the corner sat a little group chuntering away in Welsh and being very rude about the English. However, he was a Welsh miner who had moved to the Midlands and he was a Welsh speaker. He stopped to pass the time of day with them in Welsh on his way out, the look on their faces was priceless.
Whatever nationality there is no need for rudeness.

I missed Boris' s remark about President Obama being half Kenyan - however I can't see how it is a slur because it is true, his father was a Kenyan government economist, wasn't he? And Boris is descended from German, American, Turkish ancestry himself so why would he use someone's ancestry as a snub? .

Thank you thatbags I appreciate your words and yes I should have said "some". As always the some is crucial I can see that in retrospect and I didn't mean to cast a slur on all Scottish footballing fans who I am sure encompass a majority of individuals who just go to spectate and not cause any trouble. As you say things don't always come out right.

God I can't believe you are dissecting my post in such an aggressive way. I reiterate - I was young 18, this was my first experience of football hooliganism

Not me being aggressive or dissecting - just reading the words as written.

Alea, I don't know if you were ever in Glasgow on New Year's Day in the 1950s, but when my Dad took us there for the Kelvinhall carnival, the place was hoatching with cops from all over Scotland. Why? The 'Old Firm' match - legendary for the fights between Rangers and Celtic supporters. For the last few years there has been no 'Old Firm' because of Rangers' relegation to the lower reaches of the league. Now they have climbed back into the Premiership, but in these days, there is less of the hooliganism for which the two were a byword in my youth.

And I mentioned a 'Glasgow' kiss on another thread - oops, no insult intended to any Glaswegians, I am sure most kisses from Glaswegians are delightful.

I do know about the traditional "rivalry" for want of a better euphemism word between Rangers and Celtic, Hearts and Hibs and further south Liverpool and Everton !
A lot of religious affiliation involved too, of course.

PS I should add that 'The Tartan Army' has vastly repaired the reputation of Scottish fans whenever their teams play in Europe. They are generally friendly and benign - even when a wee bit 'under the influence'!

Jamila, perhaps those people in the pub had experienced mocking in English pubs, - do you have electricity yet, where's your sheep, shagged many sheep this week, hello blodwyn, hello Dai, no chapel here ,

"then don't flippin say it" sorry that sounds aggressive. Last words though otherwise it's going over the same ground, I concede I should have chosen my words more carefully.

No knowledge of football supporters but we have a great time during the six nations with both Scots and Irish supporters

hello Dai,
We had a very good friend called Dai!!

With a true Welsh singing voice

And as DM always taught me 'Two wrongs don't make a right'

She was always saying, I can hear it now

"Flippin'" ?
I always thought that was a mild, even benevolent, word.

Oh dear, if I had wanted sound aggressive *that's not the "f" word I would have chosen. I would at the very least have chosen to include the word's final"g".

Flippin/g with or without the g is neither here not there. "That's what you SAID Terribull" and "then don't flippin well say it" It's the delivery. I left school a while back

I am Welsh. I have an English friend who will not go to Wales for a holiday. She is convinced that all Welsh people normally speak English and only revert to Welsh if there is a ' foreigner' ( her words) near. I cannot convince her otherwise.
On a different note we had a man known as Dai Full Pelt in our village. He always had to run for the train.

Such a stupid myth BBbevan, how many times does one hear - I was on holiday in Wales, people in the shop were speaking in English but when I walked in they spoke Welsh , how do they know what people are saying before they walk into a shop .