little Englander

#pathetic

Definitely a big mistake. I'm an effing monster!

Four or is it five? Who cares anyway

Your not a monster Jingle, just someone who enjoys disagreements and the occasional insult directed at some

Shoot! I'm getting off of this thread. Lara's around!

Back to the weeding.

Jings we went out today and I looked at the signposts on the way back:

London isn't spelt Londun, it is spelt Llondain. Hope your DH found his way home safely
I nearly missed the turning I was so busy checking

Now this is a genuine question, Anniebach, so please don't call me a little Englander for asking it, with or without the capital

I was interested in your post saying that there is no v in the Welsh language. My grandad was born in Wales, presumably around 1890. He died before I was born, and I have never seen his birth certificate, but his death cert states Evan with a v. How would this come about? I have no idea which area he was born in or what his first language was, due to a family split, sadly.

That's a very good point Maggiemaybe,. I seem to remember that there was a butcher's shop in Holyhead that proudly displayed Evans Bros on the sign. Can you explain that Anniebach?

There is an Evans the Death in Under Milkwood. (undertaker)

Maggiemaybe, why would I call you a little Englander ? You asked a question not posted an insult or mocked .

There isn't a clear explanation of the use of J.K. V in Welsh names when these letters are not in the Welsh alphabet . Firstly the fact that people couldn't read or write , then the patronymic system which parts of Wales clung to long after England wanted it stop.

It was not unusual for people to name their son after a saint , example John , this would have been Ieuan but at the baptism the priest entered John in the register

V. The patron Saint is David and this would have been Daffydd really , the v came into use when the patronymic system was brought in , example a son named
Daffydd the son of Ifan would have been called Daffydd ap Ifan , this became David Evans ,as did the Christian name, the second Christian name became a surname , it evolved slowly , I cannot give dates sorry . Ieuan is I think the main reason for Evans

If you were ever to research your Welsh family I am quite sure you will find Ieuan or Ifan.

If you ever want help with finding some info on your grandfather do contact me by pm, I never, ever , disclose who I research for , I have done people's trees for years and never repeated a thing, each person I researched I consider a loved family member and honour this

Thank you, Anniebach, that's very interesting. And very kind of you to offer to help me research my family. Unfortunately I know next to nothing about my mother's parents, as she fell out with them just before she married and never spoke of them to my sister or me. I've never even seen a photo of them, which is very sad. I'm trying to get some information from far-flung cousins at the moment, and if they can give me something to go on, I may well take you up on your kind offer. Thanks again.

Just contact me Maggie. It is sad when there are family splits , you may enjoy learning about your Welsh family - or not . But I would advise you don't do as quite a few Americans have done , look for a link to the last Prince of Wales , all murdered or locked in nunneries

I remember, back in the sixties, ads. running along the sides of buses reading Evan Evans Bevan's Beers. I suppose Efan Efans Befan's Beers would have been even more memorable.

My surname was nearly Evans.

#brokeofftheengagement

It would have grumpa, Ifan ap Ifan Beven would have been even better, the Senydd now allows the ap to be used against - not an apple ap, a son of ap

But would the beer have tasted the same?

Na, better beer

I remember Ely Ales best in Wales. I think on a bridge near Taffs Well.

I am somewhat surprised by the direction this thread has taken and also by the fact that no one has reconnected with the origin of the phrase – but it is what it is.

I think it is very important to recognise that a language is not just about chatting in the pub or road signs. The culture and history of a nation is embedded in its language. I too live in a country where imperialism dictated that the native language was of no value – or, possibly, subversive, as no nation likes to be conquered – and therefore suppressed it deliberately. By the beginning of the last century Maori was almost wiped out in New Zealand. There have been massive efforts to revive interest in and learning of the language recently which are having an effect, but Professor Paul Moon of Auckland University, who specialises in Maori history, claims that te reo, while not dead, is still on life support.

I have studied the language for only one year but it was immediately apparent to me that the Maori way of life, beliefs and morals, some so very different from the British or English way, are encapsulated and reflected in the language and, as they are inseparable, it is essential to look at both in order to share a commonality and social understanding.

I do find it impressive that New Zealand has three official languages now: English, Maori and NZ Sign Language.

For Anniebach There are quite a few letters in the UK alphabet that don't exist in the Maori one. There are efforts made to ensure that the spelling of Maori words and place names do not include these letters. When it comes to peoples' pronunciation…well, that is a different matter.

So interesting Absent. You have caused me to think quite deeply about imperialism , explains much, the effects on countries of the commonwealth and the three countries in the U.K still causes problems . Even Boris Johnson allowed it to cloud his judgement of Obama , when he called Obama half Kenyan it was imperialism raising it's ugly head again.

Anniebach The phrase "little Englander" derives from a time when British or, perhaps majority English imperialism, was being challenged in the nineteenth century.

Yes it does Absent, I have been told on here often - it's in the past- but it isn't , the invasion by the Vikings cannot be compared with imperialism , who has talked to people who suffered under the Viking invasion ! But this is what gets dragged up

There is no doubt that the suppression of a language was closely linked to British Imperialism in all the countries that comprised the British Empire. The reinstatement of these languages also links with the resurgence of such a country's independence. It isn't useful to condemn this resurgence or to deny it has a place in today's society. If a minority of people speak a language that doesn't mean it should never be used. To deny people the right to use a language because it was taken from them is being a "Little Englander".

What a fair view on this trisher.

When a country has been stopped from speaking in their own language , then fight to have their language recognised it is natural to be protective of it and to get upset when it is still dismissed by some or criticised fir speaking it

In the interests of fairness and following on from trisher's post, not all imperialists were English. Surely this is evidenced by the vast number of Scottish, Welsh and Irish placenames around the world.

www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/1302

www.historytoday.com/blog/2012/06/scotland-and-british-empire

when he called Obama half Kenyan it was imperialism raising it's ugly head again
I still think the best way to deal with something like that if it was meant as an insult would be to say 'Yes, and I am very proud of my heritage'. Pricks their balloon.