How poor is poor?

I know, Anniebach, but some people will not try to give up despite being offered help.

£24000 annual income - would that be per person or per household?

Per household, we're a third above that.

Just about to have our bathroom completely re-done, walk in shower with level access, seat, everything suitable for an older couple with - ahem - multiple physical problems. Money well spent.

I read Townsend many years ago. He'd progressed on from Rowntree's original definition that 'a man in poverty can write no letters, drink no beer, smoke no tobacco' because he couldn't afford to buy a stamp etc. Obviously a more up to date definition is needed.

I was an illegitimate child growing up in a very poor family. There were no child benefits of any kind. I don't honestly know just what we lived on, apart from my Grandad's old age pension and my Mum's earnings as a skivvy in richer women's houses. I do know that I never felt poor or deprived. Was always fed, warm, clothed, shod and most important of all, I was conscious of being loved.

Smoking or alcohol and drugs Rosequartz ?

Smoking can be given up much easier than drink or drugs? I've heard that nicotine is harder to give up than heroin.

I'm sure some of the people Galen refers to are not actual addicts, but have made a choice to prioritise their lifestyle habits over any sense of responsibility for their own situation.

Alcohol and drug addictions are not illnesses. They are addictions.

What the heck to people's personal tales have to do with poverty? Once again, people are saying 'I grew up in poverty, but now I'm OK', therefore I'm justified in having no interest in people who are poor!

This argument is based on ignorance and complacency.

The FACT is that approximately 4 million people in the UK are living in households, which are classified by whatever method as being in poverty.

They're in a minority. Their vote doesn't count and few people are listening. The majority live in their smug bubble and couldn't care less.

PS. I know how to feed a family of six for a week on a mouse carcase and a shoe lace, if anybody is interested! Ahh! It was so good in the old days!

Alcohol - help available but denial often in place
Smoking - can be done if children are put first but, as Ana says, it is very addictive
Drugs - no personal (only work) experience

Smoking is incredibly hard to give up as the addiction works on so many levels.

Annieb I agree that the odds seem to favour those who already have 'enough' money enabling them to get even more. Again if there was political will , from whichever group was in power, to prevent this it would be a good step.

I think my daughters (late 30s) were probably the last group to have a chance of buying a home of their own on 'ordinary' incomes (one NHS worker married to a firefighter, one state school teacher living with a builder) Whilst we topped up a deposit for one daughter we did so to reduce the loan she could have had from the bank and not because they could not get/afford it.

My nephews in their 20s can no way consider buying and rent with friends but are not 'poor' although one is dependent on benefits. He has Aspergers and whilst he did manage a degree he is not finding it easy to gain a job. At the moment he is still living in his family home. I worry about his future.

Penstemmon, it is now almost impossible for young people on an ordinary income to buy a home unless parents can help. If they rent they can't afford to save for a deposit on s house. I am sorry your nephew is having difficulty finding a job, someone may see past the Aspergers , I so hope so.

With one rehab centre 14 rooms, in this country , there is little support, yes counselling is available but at set times , addicts need more support than a weekly appointment

daphne, I think that many people are just trying to illustrate that you can live and survive on poverty incomes. I had to, I had ice on my bedroom window inside, few clothes and used to often have a jam or sugar sandwich, yet I was cared for and the few clothes I had were clean.
I did not consider myself poor I assumed that everyone else was the same. im not much better off now and I work.

My other point is that how can so many people be addicted to smoking, drinking and drugs if they are on benefit. I found that after paying the bills I had nothing left for food so I had to either borrow from my family or use the credit card I went back to work as soon as possible. I could never have paid out good money for cigs or alcohol. Do some people put smoking/drink/drugs first before the bills. I would die of shame if my bills were not paid on time.

If you were an alcoholic ethelbags you would be far more likely to die from the alcohol than shame over unpaid bills, alcoholics and drug addicts do not think clearly , their world is such a dark place. Anyone on this forum could have become an alcoholic , it is not a life style choice , neither is drug addiction

So does anyone else think, like the government, that income does not matter and should not be an indicator of poverty?

fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/poverty_measure_changes_income-50463

As mentioned by Daphne, poverty should be measurable and not a matter of perception.

Several years ago my then BIL left my sister with 2 small boys, 6 & 8 years old; she had no idea where he was and no means of contacting him. My sister was left to pick up the pieces and for many years received not a penny in maintenance for the boys, despite my BIL having his own business and a very lucrative lifestyle . My sister attended the family court so many times and my ex BIL never turned up; he even, on one occasion sent a message to the court saying that he couldn't attend as he had previously arranged business meetings to attend. He was actually in Spain, staying at his own villa, playing golf!! Sorry!! I could write a whole book on this!

My sister had to sell everything of value that she possessed in order to clothe and feed her boys. Fortunately our parents moved closer to her and helped as much as they could; even so I remember a time when she had to put cardboard in the bottom of the boys shoes as they were worn right through!

Sorry about the length of my post but my sister really was poor at that time!

On the other side of the coin, I always remember when my children were very small, on occasions I couldn't wait for Tuesday, family allowance day, to come round so that I could buy groceries for the rest of the week. However, I never considered myself to be poor, especially in comparison to others.

I really am going to stop now!!

But, JanT8, your sister had your parents to help out. Unfortunately, it's not that uncommon for parents (usually mothers) to be left in that situation. Imagine if she had had nobody!

Thank you, durhamjen, for understanding the point I'm trying to make.

I think it's wrong to say there are no longer poor pensioners. Many women in particular were not able to work when their children were young, and when they did return to work there were no company pensions available to them. They therefore don't qualify for a full state pension and have no works pension. How do they manage if they live alone.

The problem with measuring. Is as people have stated different lifestyles. There are too many people now to look at individually, so everything is general and not tailored for people's individual needs. Those paying taxes, our money can't afford to give money where it is not needed. There are too many people with no skills or the wrong skills. Not educated to a high enough level for today's world. We must help those people but in the meantime help them obtain the skills they need to earn money to support themselves to a level where they don't need financial help. Low wages benefit shareholders. Just saying!

I'd agree that being in poverty is not being able to pay your bills and feed/clothe/house yourself and your dependants. I'd think pretty much everybody our age can remember living in cold houses with just one coal fire and ice on the inside of the panes. That was the just way of things in those days and didn't imply poverty. I think you're right, ONW...the definition has changed over the decades, as the general standard of living has risen.

On the other hand, my family were made poor and brought to the brink of poverty in the 90s by the soaring interest rates (17.5% at one point I believe) that rendered our monthly mortgage payment more than our total monthly joint income. They were bad times, we had to fight off the building society which was baying for us to relinquish the house. We juggled bills furiously. Every penny was pored over. Our toddler wore second-hand, as did we. I was ashamed to bring strangers into the house, it was so shabby and threadbare (and some strangers were ungraceful enough to let their lip-curls show). Everybody else was wearing big shoulder pads and shouting 'Loadsamoney!' We totally missed that boat.

Even as the economy improved we were short of money as we doggedly paid off all the debts accumulated during that time. That took over a decade. I'd been a poor art student so I had all the cook books like 'Cooking in a bedsitter' and 'Paupers Cookbook' and that stood me in good stead. We never went hungry. I still use those books! :-)

There's a happy ending. All this made us VERY good at managing money and we now live in a (tiny) mortgage-free house and can say we're more relaxed and secure financially. Over the last few years we've managed to replace much of the shabby stuff with new or newer of good quality, so it lasts. I'm proud of our little home now.

For the first time in 28 years' marriage we have savings. Bur we're mindful of the future, neither of us were able to afford to pay into pension schemes and the place hubby works doesn't provide one. I shall probably work as long as my eyes will take it; but as an illustrator I work from home so that's an advantage. Hubby is 8 years younger, so will be working for a while longer... just as well!

Sorry for the long post and congratulations if you reached the end without glazing over! :-)

Rosequartz, your claim that mothers smoke whilst in food banks , it's against the law to smoke in buildings used by the public

Mothers with pushchairs waiting for free food whilst puffing away on their ciggies ?

I realise how lucky I have been. Never been poor or in poverty. Always been able to pay utilities. Never got into debt except mortgage which is now paid. I did work the housing market. Do our houses up and selling on. We did the work after working all day. We had 3 jobs between us at one time. If running out of money just worked harder. Learnt new skills. In my own time. Had to wait for some large items I wanted. Didn't do extravagant holidays although always had a holiday. Felt. Would rather cultivate a good time here and now and not spend all year waiting for enjoyment on a 2 week holiday. We started with nothing. No parents money to help us. Sat at home for 2 years getting a deposit for a flat to buy.

There was always hope. We stayed in marriages that were past their sell buy date to live a better life. Now the young often end up on their own with kids and get into real poverty. No help from the fathers.

Poor I think is struggling with paying bills and no luxuries. Not being able to fix things that go wrong. Just existing. Horrible. And no hope.

The trouble with our own memories of our earlier lives managing on little and being happy etc. is that as children we may not have been aware of other families whose parents made different choices from ours, whose parents did not have the personal 'pride' to keep us/the home clean etc. There has always been dire poverty and folk who managed better than others.

We are a rich country, despite what we are told, and there should be enough work that pays a wage that provides sufficient money for rent/food/clothes AND a few treats for all citizens!

Why do so many expect everyone to live as they do, I cut my cloth/ I saved/ I grew up on cabbage sandwiches etc . I wish these critics would get out of their comfort zone and mix with people who are hungry, unemployed , addicts, no family support .

Sobering thoughts this brand new year. Was particularly impressed by the final comment by oldernowiser. The biggest challenge might be as to how to solve the problem of the haves and the have nots. Can't help noticing that while some people are bound up by entertainments of all kinds (sport/dancing/cruising etc) others have to rely on handouts.I read that our hunter gatherer primitive anscestors were egalitarian-sharing everything and that it was the appearance of settled communities (farming) that created a more "competitive" society -the pursuit of personal wealth.(c/f Sapiens:A brief history of mankind :Yuval Noah Harari/Harvell Seeker 2014)

Start by stop criticising the have nots, accept they exist and not all brought it on themselves