How poor is poor?

Do not knock young mums having a bit of pleasure outside the home. This is the twenty first century. Live in the present for goodness sake. It's called progress.

They don't "think" they are poor. Many of them are. Why do you think food banks exist?

Do you want them to sit at home by themselves and be miserable on their own?

Let the past go.

Yes OlderNoWiser, I remember the ice on the inside of the window frames, metal frames, in a prefabricated bungalow after the War. Chilblains on hands and feet travelling on the bus. We also lived on rations, 4 oz meat per week. My Dad was sick with a TB Kidney and because he would be off work a long time was sacked. I saw my Mum crying and there were only two of us children. We always ate well as my Mum could make things stretch. In fact cooking from scratch was the answer. I am 76 now and on less than £24,000 half of that in fact.

While my Dad was sick my Mum got a part time job in a café and met the Manager from the "Labour Exchange" having his lunch. She asked if there were any jobs for my Dad, a new factory was being built and even though Dad's was recovering from a major operation he was taken on. He was there until he retired. My Dad was brought up in an orphanage from 6 years of age. He always did his best for us and made sure we had a good child hood.

I do think younger people today have no idea how we lived then and therefore think they are poor.

When I was a young Mum I used to invite friends with their children to my house for coffee and the children could run around and play with the toys. My DiL meets her friends in a coffee shop and the children stay in their pushchairs. Meanwhile their houses stay in pristine condition. Is this progress ?

Why shouldn't expectations be higher now?
I expect my kids to be better off than we were and to have more things. It's called progress, as jingl says.

it's a bit like judging a fish by it's ability to climb a tree, it will grow up thinking it's stupid. Similarly , if we are trained to think we are 'poor' compared with other people even though we do actually have enough that's the way our thinking will go. Some of the poorest (by our standards) children in India are happier then many well off kids in Britain.

I get quite angry when people say that £24k is the national average income. It isn't! It's the mean income and is skewed by people who earn considerably more than £24k. If ten people earn a total of £24k, but one person earns £100k, nine people earn around £15.5k.

What this means is that people say that they cope very well on much less than the national average, so everybody should be able to cope, so we have a situation of poverty denial.

Median income in the UK is around £18.5k. That means that half of the population has an income higher than £18.5 and half are below.

Below £18.5k there is still quite a wide range with some people having an earned income below £10k, which is a typical income for the self-employed.

Organisations such as the Joseph Rowntree Trust have rates for absolute poverty, which means not being able to afford basics such as heating, nutritious food, clothes, essential bills (water, council tax) communication (phone, internet), transport, etc The rates are divided into before and after housing costs.

There are approximately 4 million people in the UK who live in absolute poverty. No matter how they allocate their money, they don't have enough to make safe choices, so end up paying for heating and not food, etc. If there is more than one person in a household, a choice can be made to feed some of the people properly, but not others, which is why some single parents end up feeding and clothing their children relatively well, but not themselves.

Sorry! I meant "If ten people earn a total of £24k...."

(£15,555 x 9) + £100,000 = £240,000.

£240k

Gggrrr! Wish there was an 'edit' facility!

Income alone isn't a true indicator, it would depend where you lived in the UK, how much rent or mortgage you were paying (if you still had one) If you had any dependents.

Also if you had any savings.

I agree with Riverwalk, pensioners are better off than some young families.
I know of lots of young earners in London that are on much higher wages than £24,000 and can't afford to buy a property or rent anywhere close to their place of work. Commuting therefore eats into their income.

I don't think you can always believe all those statistics. Having been self-employed for 20+ years I can say that I have never earned the "typical" income of less than £10k, which of course proves what everybody here is saying - income alone is no indicator of riches or poverty, as outgoings and circumstances are so different for everyone.

It also depends on the type of self-employment, of course, as a self-comployed window cleaner is a world away from a self-employed entrepreneur.

Greenfinch Yes I thinks it must be much more enjoyable for mums to meet up at a local kid friendly cafe. I remember taking it in turns with other mums to visit our houses. It wasn't a lot of fun as I recall. Much nicer to be out in the real everyday world.

It doesn't have to be about the children. It's the mothers who need the break.

Personally I feel that the over the years perceptions about what is hard up have changed considerable. When I was growing up 40's and 50's we had very little of what is normal for folk to have now but then nobody else did,

When my children were young 70's we thought we had so much more in the way of comfort and convenience and could even afford camping holidays in France on one salary.

Now we help our married son and his wife and our grandchild out financially quite a lot even though they consider eating out as part of their lifestyle, use far more convenience foods than we ever did or do now and are going abroad on holiday next year.

Its funny that although we are reasonably well off I still use all the old money saving tricks that I grew up with, perhaps that is why we are reasonably well of!

£24k - just shows how the rich are getting much richer. When I got married all our furniture was secondhand. I had only one dress - given to me by my sister. I made all the clothes for myself and my 2 children as I couldn't afford to buy any, and went to jumble sales for the rest. When I was little my dad used to heat bricks on the fire and wrap them in newspaper for a "hot water bottle". What really hurts is that I got no love or emotional support from my parents or sisters and brothers, but I helped them all when they needed it. Strangers have been kinder to me. Life is full of takers and givers, but if you are at least loved by those around you it helps you through the tough times. Boo hoo!

Granjura, what thoughtful, rounded thinking on what is indeed a difficult subject. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I like your thoughts and your comments, daphnedill

Bijou 92? If that's not a mistake you are amazing. Computer literate etc.
Hardship certainly did not hold you back.

I've been working as a debt adviser for a charity for 6 years now and tragically I see all too often people whom I would classify as "poor" My definition of poor is if you don't have enough money to cover your essentials- food , heating , electricity, shelter.
In more recent years there has been a significant increase in the people that we are coming across who are in this situation - and not just those on benefits - people and couples who work can still find themselves in this position - sad times :-(

What makes me so cross is the fact that paying for electricity with a meter card costs more than a monthly direct debit payment , this is so unfair to people with little money

Yes, that is grossly unfair, it means that people with little money are subsidising the electricity of those who are better off. In the old days it was the same, when money went into the meter.

The young mums sitting in coffee shops with bags of clothes are probably not the same young mums who have to go to food banks (not sure why they would be?).

I'm afraid I have little sympathy for the ones I know are smoking, drinking and using drugs. Refuse to co operate with the job centre programmes then use the food banks.

Alcohol and drug addiction are serious illnesses and these people need food too ,i have much sympathy for them , I doubt anyone starts drinking in the knowledge they will become addicted

It must be difficult to give up smoking but if it came to a choice between smoking, having the latest tattoo etc or feeding your children I know which I would choose.
And yes, I do have relatives who work in a food bank (and the clients do stand smoking in the queue over their children's pushchairs) and I am not a rabid right winger and yes I do contribute to the food bank for those in desperate need but you are right Galen although some people will not acknowledge it

Smoking whilst addictive can be given up much easier than alcohol or drugs