How poor is poor?

Indeed Annieb Through work I knew many families who truly struggled against the odds to live a decent life but most of my friends were in reasonably to well-paid jobs Since I moved away from London I have made a much wider range of friends. Some of my friends locally have lives that have gone awry because of illness, death of a spouse, disability of a child, poor parenting etc. They struggle to manage the benefit system, find work, pay the bills, stretch low incomes etc. All of them are lovely people, who love their kids, want to live a good life, want to have friends, to dress nicely, to give presents, to meet up with others etc. Amazingly just like everyone else!!
Their lack of funds is not because they are wasters or bad people..they have just had some awful bad luck or made a mistake.

I know the media will highlight the few who do take advantage of the welfare system but they really are the minority..which is why they make news! So unfair on the majority of folk, depending on benefits, who are living honest, purposeful and difficult lives.

Exactly Penstemmon , all these people being criticised are individuals , life has the nasty little habit of knocking some down and they have to deal with it

great if one can save to buy what they need, what if those who have no money left to save? Great if on a very small income and family bring essential foods , what of those who do not have this support

We do not live in Stepford

I think people in general deserve more credit - no one I know assumes that all families on benefits or having to use food banks are feckless wastrels - we know the majority are in the position they are in through no fault of their own.

Don't understand the Stepford reference, how is it relevant?

(and yes, I have read the book...)

An economist's definition of poverty is a "condition where people's basic needs for food, clothing, and shelter are not being met." Anybody who has basic needs met, even if they have to skimp and save for them, is NOT poor.

In a modern economy, the definition of poverty is linked to money, because most transactions involve money (although not all - such as doing somebody a favour because they've done one for you), but bills and most consumer goods need money.

The "official" definition of poverty was (until recently) an income 60% below the MEDIAN income for people in a similar situation - please note, NOT the MEAN income. Therefore, in the UK people are classified as being in poverty if they have a household income below about £11,500. Four million people are below that threshold.

Relative poverty has been criticised because it actually reduces in a recession, although people are no better off, and it doesn't take into account different household needs. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation produces levels of absolute poverty, based on a "basket" of basic needs. Interestingly, the figure is very consistent with the level of relative poverty, usually slightly higher. Distinctions are made between housing and non-housing costs and households with different numbers of people.

The JRF's current poverty lines (after housing costs) are:

Single working-age adult £176pw
Pensioner couple £238pw
Couple with two children (age 2 and 8) £452pw
Lone parent with one child (age 1) £265pw

The vast majority of people who are totally reliant on benefits have an income below those levels. I find it even more shocking that two thirds of children whose parents receive benefits live in a household where at least one person works.

Whatever people's perception of poverty, four million people in the UK have a lower income than the above and do not have the choice to save, because their incomes are below what they need just to survive healthily in today's society.

Little understanding shown by many here

I am puzzled that people in food banks are allowed to smoke , expect an explanation will be given, but it does put mothers with pushchairs in food banks in a bad light

It wasn't said or implied that all the mothers were smoking. Perhaps they were queueing up outside the food bank.

LuckyFour,

According to the official definition of poverty, there are no poor pensioners. Single pensioners without a full state pension and/or a company pension will have their pensions made up with Pension Credit to above the poverty line. They are also eligible for full housing benefit and council tax relief plus a few other hand-outs. They might be poor compared with some other pensioners, but they are not poor compared with some working age people.

The argument, which is so often used, that pensioners have paid into the system all their lives, doesn't apply here.

OlderNoWiser,

If you don't agree that 'typical' self-employed incomes aren't around £10k, go and take it up with HMRC, because they certainly think so. It could, if course, be that the self-employed don't declare all their earnings, but the vast majority of self-employed people run small, part-time businesses and the figure sounds about right to me. (I'm one of them, by the way! ;-))

It's interesting to see some figures, daphne. Are the sums you give before or after tax?

Ah yes, queuing up outside the food bank, at our food bank it is quite usual for clients to be accompanied by a friend who isn't queuing for food ,

Eh? Don't know what you mean. Same with the Stepford reference.

Because people are standing in a queue outside a food bank it doesn't follow they are queuing for food, they may be accompanying someone who is. Many who need food banks also need support because it eases their embarrassment having to use the food banks ,

Mothers with pushchairs waiting for free food whilst puffing away on their ciggies?
I only know what has been told to me by someone who works in a food bank.
Along with all the sad young people trying to get a job when there are few to be had in their area, the alcoholics who cannot get over their addiction, spend their money on alcohol but need food, plus the very generous people who have been known to fill a trolley full of food to donate when they don't look as if they have two pennies to rub together themselves, and the people known to my relative who send their children to private school, drive 4x4s and go out of the other door of Waitrose to avoid putting anything in her trolley when she is collecting on the 'supermarket run'.

Sorry, I only know a lot of things I know from RL not from links.
It takes all sorts.

I never tried cabbage sandwiches but have had cabbage soup.

outside the doors, obviously no-one is allowed to smoke inside

Perhaps they were queueing up outside the food bank
Ana someone can see what was meant!
And then they went in and collected their food.
Of course, my dear, kind, lovely, generous, hardworking, honest relative could be a liar. Probably some posters think she must be because it doesn't fit in with what they are adamant is true. However, I think she sees the whole spectrum, those who are sad, addicted, deprived, in desperate need, and occasionally those working the system.

Maggie

It is 'equalised' income, so after tax and National Insurance Contributions, but before any benefits (monetary or in kind).

In other words, people are deemed not to be able to afford the 'basics' if they don't have that much cash in hand.

The figures from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation are higher than the government's own figures, so the government says people can live on less than those figures - and there are still four million people living on less.

In reply to Luckyfour. I do know some of my contemporaries who are too proud to claim benefits. I never went to work after I married in 1945. My full state pension is based on my husbands contributions and I have £10 from my late husbands company. I am not ashamed to claim Pension Credit because this country did nothing to help us when we left the Forces. Couldn't get on a housing list and were homeless. My husband served seven years and was wounded in the Normandy landings and as soon as he recovered was sent to,Palestine suffering what these days is called Post traumatic Stress. Although I didn't go out to work I made all of my and daughters clothes, grew all our veg and did all the painting and decorating and was a very active member of the Women's Institute. "poor but content is rich enough."

rosequartz,

I volunteered in a food bank for just over a year. Smoking was strictly forbidden inside the building and I can honestly say that I never saw people queuing up outside smoking. We didn't often have queues anyway - certainly not outside.

In fact, we didn't have many mothers with pushchairs either. Maybe it was just the area where I volunteered, but most of our clients were middle-aged (40-65) men; a significant number had severe mental health problems (not related to alcohol or drug abuse) or learning difficulties. A number had been in the forces and many were divorced/separated and were affected by the so-called bedroom tax.

It depends how judgmental you are. There were certainly some people I would have liked to have picked up and given a good shake. We had advisors onsite, who tried to signpost people to sources of help, but it's not so easy to pick yourself up if you're chronically and seriously depressed, which many people were. The majority of people found themselves in dire circumstances through no fault of their own.

rosequartz,

I'm not a liar either. Some people even think I'm kind, lovely, generous, hardworking and honest :-). I saw people who were desperate - you have to be desperate to be eligible for a food bank voucher. It's not a lifestyle choice and you can't get food parcels on a regular basis.

Rosequartz, your relative took note of who was smoking outside and then checked if they received food? Sorry but you post was so Daily Mail, anything to finger point at those in need, I was surprised it was you who said it.

Poor but content is a dream not reality. Life style in 1945 cannot be compared to 2016.

Exactly, annieb! I wasn't actually born in 1945, but even comparing life now with the 1950s or 1960s is ridiculous. Examples involves phones and the internet. Of course nobody had mobiles in the 1960s - they hadn't been invented. Many people didn't have landlines, but there were telephone boxes all over the place. These days people are expected to have phones to lead a normal life. Not having an internet connection makes normal life very much more difficult, especially if a family has children, who need it for homework, or when applying for jobs, paying taxes or even claiming some benefits. A fridge is another example. My grandmother never had a fridge (never mind a freezer) but there was a corner shop at the end of her road, where she shopped almost daily, and people delivered. Life has moved on!

here were certainly some people I would have liked to have picked up and given a good shake. We had advisors onsite, who tried to signpost people to sources of help, but it's not so easy to pick yourself up if you're chronically and seriously depressed, which many people were. The majority of people found themselves in dire circumstances through no fault of their own.
That is exactly what I said too didn'[t you realise?

Rosequartz, your relative took note of who was smoking outside and then checked if they received food? Sorry but you post was so Daily Mail, anything to finger point at those in need, I was surprised it was you who said it.

No, she didn't take note, but sometimes it is difficult not to notice things.
I also pointed out that she said how many people they help are in such desperate need.

anything to finger point at those in need
is there any need to be so unpleasant when we are discussing something and some are trying not to take a totally blinkered approach to life