Yet another wonderful idea from Ian Duncan-Smith?

They're working on it durhamjen!

durhamjen

For heavens sake, nobody has said Borstal's are returning!!!!

It was a prog. where young men, who had by their own admission , basically become a problem to society and had no employment, entered into an experimental borstall .They were all volunteers and free to walk out at any time, obviously!

It was no doubt a little easier than a true borstal would have been but it was pretty much following an institutionalised life stlye, even wearing shorts and blazers. The basis of the prog. was to make the lads engage in discipline, work ethic, team work and taking responsibility for their actions, sadly something that was lacking in their lives. Not all managed to hack it and stropped off.

It was very interesting and at the end of it some lads did benefit from having structure , work experience, meeting people from outside their comfort zone etc. The main achievement was gaining a bit of respect for not only others but for themselves too. It focused on attainment, self belief , working to support yourself and family not despair and loosing hope in your future.

Sounds like a programme that Nick Hewer and Margaret Mountford did for the BBC, but without the bootcamp element.
Some got work and others didn't.

My youngest son did a YOP scheme in the 80s and ended up being given a job afterwards. His cousin did something similar ten years later, but by then employers had discovered they could carry on with people on the workscheme and never pay a proper wage. He was never given a job from a workscheme, even after a year's work for companies.

It always depends on the ethics of the company you work for. To be told thanks, but there is no job, then find out a couple of weeks later that someone else is doing your job on the same scheme is very disheartening.

The worst thing you can do for your child is to 'Infantalize' them and that is exactly how some become.

Anya maybe you can explain how you could have all these placements available to do community work on the first day of claiming then? Volunteers take a bit of managing, inducting, kitting out, training etc do they not?

That's one of the major problems with this daft idea Jess M.

I don't think there are any details available re IDS's proposal to give council housing to people who come off benefits. How on earth would this work? Supposing someone comes off benefits, works for a while and then loses their job, becomes ill or stops working? Would the house be re-possessed? Even if it were feasible, I think it is a totally unfair proposal since it would further deplete social housing and hurt thousands of families who are experiencing housing problems.

As for people having to undertake community work if they claim benefits, if this is not to be seen as "punishment" for not having a job, then it would have to be a properly designed, resourced and managed scheme that would actually help people to gain, or build on, meaningful skills.

I didn't see the programme about Borstal so can't comment on it. What I do recall about the Borstals of old was that they, and their occupants, were viewed in a very negative way by the general public. They were seen as places where "bad" boys went to be punished. Like many of the institutions where children and young people were placed, there appeared to be a lack of properly trained staff and a risk of physical, psychological and sexual abuse. There have been sex abuse scandals in the equivalent of a Borstal in Scotland, in County Durham and in Northern Ireland - and they are probably the tip of the iceberg.

I'm sure that some young people would benefit from a rehabilitative programme that included psychological assessments, counselling, anger management, etc., together with the opportunity to gain practical and social skills and increase literacy and numeracy. From what I have read, the current young offender institutions are certainly no better than the old Borstals and may even be worse. There are reports of vicious bullying, criminal activity and staff who are poorly trained and unmotivated, which has led to a significant increase in self harm and suicide. I feel that as well as this being a national disgrace, it also ensures that young people will leave these institutions even more angry, aggressive and inclined to commit crime than when they went in.

Jess to answer your question I would need to know your existing expertise and experience of managing complex projects. If it is nil, then there is no way I could explain it to you in less than several thousand word and with copious diagrams. We're not talking about organising a Bring and Buy sale at the local church FFS.

Let me put it simply. For this to succeed it would have to be project managed on the same scale as, for example, the London Olympics. I don't expect you to even begin to grasp the complexity of such a project, but there are those who do. And even computer programmes which can help.

And of course we all know how successful those games were.

Lucky then, that those in charge didn't throw up their hands and say 'oh dear, it might take a bit of managing, inducting, kitting out...' it can't be done. Or someone to say 'maybe you can explain how' this could all be done.

Following on from Eloethan's mention of suicide rates, this was in the paper today.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/increasing-levels-of-suicide-among-men-are-linked-to-austerity-10057632.html

The Young Offenders Institute in Durham has closed. We drove past it yesterday, and all the signs and fencing had disappeared. There are a lot of young men in counselling now because of what happened to them there. Do we really want to stigmatise people even more?
When most of us left school it was easy to get work.

The finding that up to three times as many unemployed people, as compared to employed people, commit suicide seems to run contrary to the notion put about by politicians and the media that life without work is a constant round of easy benefits and easy living.

To understand the reasons behind suicide rates you would have to evaluate so many causes , not just assume the suicide rate is high because of unemployment.

What percentage had been drug abusers, what percentage had mental illness, what percentage were alcoholics etc. It is far too simplistic to say they committed suicide because they were unemployed.

If unemployment was to blame for an increase in the suicide rate then I would expect people to be shouting out loudly the status quo simply cannot remain the same, yet it seems so many feel any scheme put forward is either against human rights, give them more money and all will be rosey. . The status quo being, a feeling of uselessness, loss of self worth, possible isolation from society, turning to drugs/alcahol , nothing to get up for, no work ethic or understanding the need to take responsibility for your own life, basically becoming institutionalised and reliant on the state without realising it.

For my mind you either leave people to fester in self worthlessness or you try to give them back purpose, work ethic, responsibility and hope . It will never happen if the easy option of doing nothing persists.

Anya you know what they say about assumption. I used to teach project management to consulting engineers. So my little brain would not be over-taxed.
I think though you might be slightly over-egging the amount of management needed to ramp up community work, as there is quite a lot already in place (whereas the Olympics were starting from close to zero) - but I think we are agreed that the management task would be considerable.
Are you suggesting that project management on this scale, and the investment required, would be a good use of public money?

Really Jess don't get so defensive.

If you read my post I said that I would need to know your 'existing expertise and experience' in managing complex projects. Your reply explains quite clearly you understand the theory, so I could start off assuming we have a common knowledge base, if that's an acceptable assumption?

Re community projects being 'ramped up' that of course depends on what is already in place, the quality of that provision and how sustainable it is in terms of resources, etc.. To find this out there will need to be detailed and careful research and analyses of existing projects and what capacity they have to expand. It is certain that new initiatives will need to be set up to plug gaps in existing provision, etc., etc., etc.. You know how important this groundwork is through your own experience, so there's not much point in labouring this point.

Am I suggesting that investing in good project managemnt is a 'good use of public money' ? Indeed I am. We have under invested in schemes before, using too few experts in their fields and too many chinless wonders appointed through the 'old boy network' .

If our youth are not worth investment then who is?

Ah the difference between a and a FFS eh?

anya just as a sheer matter of curiosity ( I know it killed the cat, but I am by nature and nurture curious) what is your knowledge base and experience?

I have planned, funded, implemented and project managed two multimillion community projects Galen.

If you want me to supply more details I'm happy to oblige.

PS they took up together the last 8 years of my working life so that will give you an idea of the scope of thrm

Funded???
That was indeed generous of you!

I brought down the funding Soutra - my pockets aren't that deep! Sorry for using shorthand terms.

What sort of projects were they? I'm interested as I had to manage quite a large budget and workforce myself and I appreciate the difficulties !

Isn't it strange how wrong you can be about a member? I always thought Anya had been in Education. There you go!

Happy to PM you Galen or even meet up for a coffee and chat next time I'm in Bristol.

Yes Soutra I was in education until 1998. And my first community project was education related.

But why do I get the impression you are calling me a liar?

Might do that sometime

I'd like that Galen

Will this give you less work to do, Galen?

www.politics.co.uk/opinion-formers/rethink/article/charity-shocked-by-proposal-to-charge-people-to-challenge-be