Woman

JoYou are talking about intersex, I’m not.
‘My knowledge base’ - do women need one of these?
Anyway, there is no point in us arguing about this here.
Perhaps if we were having a chat in the staff room or the pub we might get somewhere, but that’s obviously not going to happen here!
Let’s part as mates

GJ would you like to give your opinion on whether lesbians should be obliged to accept transwomen as lesbians and have sexual relationships with them, or risk being called (as they have been) TERF, transphobic, bigots?
Just to clarify your position for me.
You don’t need to write a long answer unless you wish to but please answer YES or NO

1. Yes, you do think lesbians must accept transwomen who want sexual relationships with them.
No, you don’t think lesbians must accept transwomen who want to have sexual relationships with them.
2. Yes, you think refusing such a relationship makes them transphobic, TERF etc.
No, you don’t think refusing such a relationship makes them transphobic, TERF etc.

No I'm not. I'm talking about what you would regard as normal women. Clitoris size varies. And it gets bigger when transmen take testosterone. Big enough at times for a transman to manipulate as a penis. I got this s information from Del La Grace at a lesbian/gay conference a few years ago.

I think it's you that doesn't understand trans. Maybe do some reading of the writings of a transman.

Mollygo, I stated this point on a previous thread. Every individual, whatever sex/gender/ethnicity/age makes their own decision about sexual partners. That is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about terminology.

The thread is about terminology. My question to you was about what terminology commits you to.
You use the term transphobic. I asked you a specific question about what makes someone -a lesbian in this case, transphobic.
Once again you avoid answering.

You could chop off my clitoris or inflate it with a balloon pump, and I’d still be a woman

That's a very kind offer..

Being a woman isn’t all about intercourse and who does what with what.
Honestly…

Why is it that. those who don't accept transpeople always accuse anyone supporting them of believing lesbians should be forced to have sex with someone? Is that the best you can do in the way of argument? As for all the "I don't notice/accept/conform to gender roles, well bully for you, but that doesn't help someone who feels they are being forced to conform to a gender role they don't fit.
And noone has answered my question if the article had said pregnant women were not being vaccinated and one transman was refusing would the inaccuracy be acceptable?

FannyCornforth

‘Female penis’ ?

My posts about 'female penis' were in response to your post. You wrote about it so I (someone who has empirical evidence, from a trans man) clarified. At which point you told me I was wrong, at which point I showed you that I wasn't.

Mollygo, as a sometime lesbian your questions bear no relation to anything I've experienced in the gay community. I'm assuming you are a cis straight woman. WHY are you trying to put lesbians and trans women into your categories? I can't answer your questions because they're irrelevant. ALL the lesbians and transwomen/men I know believe everyone has freedom to chose their sexual partners. If the answer isn't clear enough for you, rethink your questions.

MissAdventure

That's a very kind offer..

Hahahahahaha

By ‘female penis’ I was talking about men who say that they are women yet still enjoy having their todgers.
It’s a man thing

And if lesbians can choose not to include men as women in their relationships then any women, straight, bisexual etc can choose not to include men in the category of women. As you well know gagajo some gay men and some lesbians are gender critical, there is no uniform view on this subject across the gay community,
I am not entirely sure what you are asking trisher, I think in relation to medical procedures it's really important to talk about sex. So if a report is talking about pregnancy we know they are talking about the female sex.

Trisher who is forcing people to conform to gender roles. Dress how you like, present how you like, etc etc by saying those gender roles are associated with a particular sex you are reinforcing those gender roles.

GJ as my post of 17.54 some Lesbians have been criticised and accused of transphobia because they refused to accept a relationship with a transwoman came from a meeting with Lesbians seeking support against being attacked because of their choice.
If you haven’t come up against this either because you wouldn’t find such a relationship unacceptable or because even as a sometime lesbian, you haven’t been treated to the attacks you are lucky.
Do you think it acceptable-however big or small your clitoris, that as a lesbian you must accept a relationship with a transwoman OR be labelled transphobic, a bigot or TERF.

if lesbians can choose not to include men as women in their relationships then any women, straight, bisexual etc can choose not to include men in the category of women

Galaxy, these are TWO entirely different issues.

One, is about who an individual has a relationship with. Personal.

The other is a unilateral decision about what makes the category of women. Social/political.

But the personal is political. Its personal to women in prison who have been raped and are having to share single sex facilities with men. Its personal to those in refuges, its personal to those competing in sport. Its personal to the woman who was made to refer to her assailant as a woman. And so on.
Your history sounds a little similar to mine Gagajo, it's honestly highly unlikely that I have suddenly become a bigot.

Galaxy

Trisher who is forcing people to conform to gender roles. Dress how you like, present how you like, etc etc by saying those gender roles are associated with a particular sex you are reinforcing those gender roles.

Honestly you really do post some tosh. I'm not doing anything. I'm quite happy for anyone to wear anything and use any facilities they choose. I'm not the one imagining transwomen are somehow going to access those facilities and assault women because one or two cases have been widely publicised. But I will point this out. In the gender neutral society you are imagining no one could identify the sex of anyone else so all facilities would have to be available to everyone. So yes let's have a gender neutral society then perhaps transpeople could live in peace.

I didn't say you were a bigot Galaxy. I don't know you.

I took my place on this topic years before transphobia became a widespread thing, so I came to my own decisions about the topic without the political noise in my head. To be honest, my first experiences were an epiphany for me. Sex/gender is such bullsh**t.

Possibly, I stand back from things too much. I see sex/gender as a continuum and I see the trans debate in much the way I saw the battle for gay & lesbian equality. I think feminism / gay rights / trans rights are all part of the same process and I genuinely am A) confused and B) very sad that some feminists have sheared off to see trans people as a threat. Because with a fair amount of experience in this area, I have yet to meet a trans person who I've seen as a threat. They have all just been people trying to live a life that is authentic to them.

If we lived in a gender-neutral society, surely there wouldn’t be any transpeople at all. And why can’t transmen having a baby be called pregnant transmen? Why the need for transpeople?

I agree SD. We don't yet though.

Its unlike you to be rude Trisher so I will ignore that. Using the phrase dress like a woman, assuming that clothes etc are indicative of sex, all reinforce gender roles. It is very easy to identify sex Trisher its how we know julian clary is a man, its how we know Boy George is a man, despite them presenting in a gender non conforming way.
I dobt see trans people as a threat Gagajo. I think that men are of a higher risk in terms of committing certain crimes than women. I dont think men with ginger hair are a risk to women in particular, I think they shouldn't be in a woman only space though.

Just abolish gender, then all this argument goes away, anyone can be anything they like. Any separate facilities should be based on biology.

I suspect that if men wanted to dress in what is considered female clothing and live their definition of a female life they could and no one would take any notice many of these problems would fade away, biology is fixed and we have no need for gender.

Just abolish gender, then all this argument goes away, anyone can be anything they like. Any separate facilities should be based on biology
And just how will you discover someone's biology? Will we all carry sex identity cards?.

And what will we do about those that don't fit the nice, neat XX / XY categories? Look at their genitalia?