Woman

thanks doodledog. sorry to lay it on.

as for gender woo woo..I have decided to add (assigned marvellous at birth) at least we can have a laugh.
And when I do see gender pronouns in my mail it tells me the person is either a scared employee of diversity employer or bonkers.

You have a lot on your plate, grannygranby. I hope you are ok, and by all means use us as a sounding board if it helps .

As regards the ice-breaking pronouns, trans issues aside, I just don't see the point. I was brought up to use someone's name if you are talking about them when they are there. If I'd called someone 'she', I'd have been asked about the cat's mother. I taught my own children likewise. So (neutral question) if people aren't going to use your chosen pronoun, why declare your preference at all? If I'm asked, I will, of course, use people's pronoun of choice, but declaring it in advance seems a bit self-obsessed to me.

I think if you are meeting with 20 other people from all walks of life, all ages and wiith differing experiences an ice breaker simply gives you the name of someone, a few basic facts and the pronoun they prefer sometimes. I can understand it doesn't need to be used if the people have a shared professional experience.
As I said there were two or three "theys" I encountered, I think 2 would be regarded as she by most of you and one a possible he. Butit wasn't their preference. They were non-binary and not gender fluid.

Also with due respect doodledog I was relieved that petunia brought up Mridul Wadhwa in a post called women. In the same way that we could discuss the horrifying attacks in Plymouth being triggered by extreme misogynistic and women blaming sub cultures alive and kicking on the Internet not policed and not labeled terrorist. It is not the first mass killing by an incel group. And this too is linked with the 4000+ % increase in girls wanting to be boys as they are constantly under pressure and bullied into a sexual activity they are not seeking yet are made guilty for not wanting. Their mental problems have been widely reported. I don’t have any answers but they do need help and support though I don’t know how we can give it.
I have just entertained my three granddaughters and their parents... just silently hope to god they will be ok. It worries me which is why I am writing about it at this ungodly hour! There’s no way I could orcwould discuss this with them as three including my DIL have muscular dystrophy (myotonic) the youngest, at two, severely but DIL won’t label her as disabled as she finds it too ‘defining’ even though the child is operating at the level of s 3 month old, so identity politics are surely there. Nor will she accept she is ‘disabled’ or my eldest gdaughter who is a very beautiful 9 year old, in a complex different autistic world. This means they will not allow application for blue badge which my son as the only driver would find useful. It’s more of the side of identity politics that is confusing and unhelpful
I don’t want to go off topic... women and girls - the female sex and our safety and sanity is more than enough.
(It has helped that I have been able to write this down though, So thanks and bear with I hope.)
So onward fellow brave souls that are daring to tackle it

I’ve just read back on a few posts as o was out of it yesterday with visitors and I can’t understand themoroblems with pronouns and ice breakers. I don’t refer to myself in the third person therefore I would not need to repeat my name I would say the ingendered ‘I’.

Well I don’t know any of those either other than what I’ve read or seen on TV, so thanks for the information.

Isn't it gender fluid people like Pip/Philip Bunce who have woman days and man days? Or Eddie Izzard who goes between "boy mode" and "girl mode", although I think almost 60 year old Eddie's been in "girl mode" for a while now.
Yes, this is a different thing from non-binary.

Isn't it gender fluid people like Pip/Philip Bunce who have woman days and man days? Or Eddie Izzard who goes between "boy mode" and "girl mode", although I think almost 60 year old Eddie's been in "girl mode" for a while now.

Like Doodledog I think the majority of us are non-binary. I don't think I personally know one single stereotypical binary person.

They don’t necessarily change day to day, Molly. I have a friend whose daughter is non-binary. They don’t switch from one identity to another, but are always neither, if you see what I mean.

To be honest, I don’t really understand it myself, as I think we are all non-binary, but it’s harmless enough, and not (in this case) imposed on others.

For those who have chosen non-binary as a day to day change, I would imagine they usually appear and possibly introduce themselves as the gender they have opted for that day. I have met transgender people, but only read about non-binary.

I agree, Rosie. A quick once round the room asking people to say what they would like to be called is fine, particularly if the facilitator gives everyone a sticky label on which to write their name as otherwise everyone will immediately forget it.

I have never met a transperson who hasn't got, adapted or chosen a name that makes their preferred gender very clear. With people who identify as non-binary it can be more difficult, as they usually choose names that are not gender-specific, but even so, I have never encountered a problem.

How often is it necessary to use a pronoun when you know someone's name? If you misgender someone it will only be when they are not there, and the odds are that if someone else knows you have done so, they will put you right.

trisher It's called ice-breaking Rosie51 it's there to build connections between the people attending.
I'd be glad if you could stop patronising me, it's unnecessary and extremely unpleasant. I know what an ice-breaker is, I just find it a useless, intrusive process that many people would go along with against their inner wishes. I also think in a group of 20 or more it would be impossible to absorb that many irrelevances!

Thanks Doodledog but not to worry. I really think catfishing when I read those posts, or sometimes I even abbreviate that long word to . . .
SueDonim, we don’t have to do ice-breakers or give information about ourselves unless we live in the superior or rarified world
of . . .
I’m interested to see that we are once again on the rights of trans as opposed to men and women. But at least we’ve moved off
g . . . . . . . a and for that I’m truly grateful.
Since we’ve moved on I’m tempted to think it’s agreed that people (generic non-binary term) with the male version of the above should not show theirs (non-gender specific pronoun) off in women’s spaces . . .

Mollygo

If I misgendered someone, calling a ‘man’ with a beard ‘he’, and he corrected me or a female looking lady ‘she’ I’d just apologise if they corrected me. If they want to introduce themselves to avoid that, fine. Presumably they’d afford me the same courtesy if I don’t want to offer information about myself.

You would Mollygo because I imagine you're a considerate neurotypical person. I fear for my grandson in today's climate. He is neurodiverse with learning difficulties, ADHD and severe autism. Like a great many people with autism he doesn't lie. If he sees a person with a beard, say eg Alex Drummond, he will call them he and believe it is a man, and he'd not be wrong about Alex being male. People with severe autism will find the concept of gender identity extremely difficult to understand. I think some posting on these threads would want him thoroughly castigated and punished for the crime of misgendering. No thought for his struggles at all.

Will my grandson face a prosecution in the future for simply telling the truth as he perceives it?
www.womenarehuman.com/autistic-teen-found-guilty-of-hate-crime-for-asking-police-officers-sex-autism-group-condemns-prosecution/
If being misgendered causes such fear in a PCSO you have to wonder if they're really up to the job.

Worldy, not wordy!

trisher

Doodledog did I say anything is compulsory or that anyone is looked down upon or castigated if they choose not to share? Of course they aren't. It is just so sad that your only way of responding to anything is "well that doesn't happen" and then :well if it's compulsory". It does make me wonder what sort of worlds you inhabit and why you feel the need to pick holes in one ice-breaker which was one example of where a pronoun might be needed. I really can't see how it is more inclusive not to ask and to risk using the wrong pronoun.
I do wonder what you would do if in one of these sessions you were running someone complained because you misgendered them. And why the prospect of doing that doesn't seem to worry you at all.

It is just so sad that your only way of responding to anything is "well that doesn't happen" and then :well if it's compulsory".

I think anyone who has read this thread will know that this is a very unfair comment.

I'm not 'picking hole in one icebreaker'. You used the 'icebreaker' as an example of how 'your circles' begin group discussions. You used it in order to try to make Mollgo look less wordy than you, which was snide and unnecessary.

I think that asking people in front of others to declare a pronoun is intrusive. I think it is far from inclusive, and is assuming a great deal about people's willingness to share personal details with others.

If someone asked me to use a particular pronoun then of course I would. I would not take it upon myself to push them to do so though. And if someone complained about accidental misgendering (which would be highly unlikely unless they were behaving maliciously) I would deal with the situation as and when it arose. The prospect doesn't worry me at all.

If I misgendered someone, calling a ‘man’ with a beard ‘he’, and he corrected me or a female looking lady ‘she’ I’d just apologise if they corrected me. If they want to introduce themselves to avoid that, fine. Presumably they’d afford me the same courtesy if I don’t want to offer information about myself.

Doodledog did I say anything is compulsory or that anyone is looked down upon or castigated if they choose not to share? Of course they aren't. It is just so sad that your only way of responding to anything is "well that doesn't happen" and then :well if it's compulsory". It does make me wonder what sort of worlds you inhabit and why you feel the need to pick holes in one ice-breaker which was one example of where a pronoun might be needed. I really can't see how it is more inclusive not to ask and to risk using the wrong pronoun.
I do wonder what you would do if in one of these sessions you were running someone complained because you misgendered them. And why the prospect of doing that doesn't seem to worry you at all.

SueDonim I don’t like them, but in primary teaching it’s easy. On courses, I used to say my name and year-group and sometimes my school. By the time 30 teachers had said that, I only remembered the people next to me, the tall bloke who said he teaches EYFS and maybe the teacher who looks too young to be out of school. We don’t do it anymore.
You learn far more chatting over the break.

Also, as I have said before, you don't get to dictate how other posters behave or respond.
That’s rich, after the demands you made to me, complete with shouting to BE CLEAR and so on.

I doubt that anyone is on here all day - most probably dip in and out - but if you ask a direct question and are given an answer, it is only polite to respond. You really do set yourself up as above the common herd, don’t you?

On the subject of icebreakers, I dislike most of them - particularly the ones that ask for personal information to be revealed to people you don’t know and may never meet again after the end of the session. When I run things like that I use very generic icebreakers (if I use them at all) which ask non-threatening questions that allow participants to reveal only the information about themselves that they wish to reveal.

In an interview situation, however, I think that it is different. Employers and managers need to know about certain personal information in order to fit the right person to the role.

Plenty of people I know dislike ice-breakers in their working world. They find it embarrassing especially if they have social anxiety and don’t like speaking to groups. Why should you have to give people information about yourself?

Actually, France and Germany have already invented new pronouns for non binary use. France is wrestling with the need for agreement with adjectives e.g. il est heureux /elle est heureuse. I suspect it will end up just using the male form. We’re just behind.

I’m fine with pronouns. He she it are singular. We, you, they are plural.
His hers it’s are singular. Our, your, their are plural.
I don’t care if other people want to be grammatically incorrect, nor, in case you were thinking of it, do I need a lecture on the evolution of language to suit a small faction of people.

It's called ice-breaking Rosie51 it's there to build connections between the people attending. If you are there for half or a whole day thee wil be other opportunities for socialising and during those times you may want to connect two people with similar interests and once again you would usually use pronouns.

Really this absolute denial of the basics of English grammar just because you don't want to admit to the use of pronouns and that there is a choice is ridiculous.

Unless X's like of cats and recent holiday to Greece in some way defines them or is totally relevant to the group I'm happy to skip that. I prefer to get to know people socially in a more normal way. If it is an official meeting then none of that is relevant, their expertise in the area may be, in which case X is our representative for xxxx. If the name gets a bit repetitive, doesn't the pronoun also get a bit repetitive?