How many dead Palestinians ....

Hello Nonnie
Might it be suggested that if you ever go to Liverpool you refrain from two things :
Openly carrying a copy of the Sun newspaper(?)
Voicing your opinion about '' going over it again and again is not going to solve a thing. nothing is achieved by going over and over old grudges. Imo it is all about the future.''
Here's a reminder why: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28555585

I do think that the past is relevant but that it cannot be changed, as someone said would we go back to pre partition in India etc? Of course not and I agree with whoever said we should be looking forward rather than back. The history only gives context but going over it again and again is not going to solve a thing. As in family disputes nothing is achieved by going over and over old grudges. Imo it is all about the future.

Eloethan
Thank you for your link to the Indy's article - shocking, but hardly surprising,. It confirmed zo many of the suspicions I have had for years. One tactic which is not mentioned is the one used frequently by Mr Regev, and others,
''We are holding an inquiry into this alleged incident.''
These come thick und faster, but NEVER the 'results (?)'.
Much has been made over of the yars over Muslims 'celebrating' the death, killing, assassination, or murder of perceived invaders. Now we see the other side of the coin via your Indie link und der .....Times of Israel, no less.

>>>A video has emerged showing far-right Israeli protesters celebrating the death of children in Gaza in Tel Aviv this weekend......chanting
“there is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza” in Hebrew, according to the ......
Times of Israel. <<<

i100.independent.co.uk/article/heres-farright-israelis-celebrating-the-death-of-children-in-gaza--x1bRj8d7Mx

The Independent article is chilling but I'm pleased I read it.

I don't think Israeli politicians are the only ones who deliberately manipulate public opinion through carefully chosen words.

Depressingly, I suspect the tactic works with many people.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

I didn't think many of the comments on the site of lilygrans linked article were particularly enlightening but I did think one of the links someone provided - to the above Independent article - makes interesting reading.

I hear that the only power station in Gaza has now been bombed to rubble - again.

lilygran in what way would members of Hamas not be victims? Every Palestinian is a victim of the creation of the State of Israel as every European Jew became the victim of Nazi Germany. As we rightly do not forget the horror of the Nazi cleansing of Jews, gypsies , communists and homosexuals so the Palestinian people cannot forget the Nakba.

I may support the Palestinians but I am not a holocaust denier. I just regret that the rest of the western world still feels so guilty about the impact of Nazism on the Jewish people it cannot act to stop the Zionists now as thy try to annihilate Palestinians.

Eloethan
A magnificent run of contributions, if I may make zo bold.
I had read the Huff-Post article, and many of the Comments, before reading the 1st of your comments.
I was most disappointed with Mr Ali A. Rizvi's article , and the many trivialities in the Comments section added to the poor quality of the presentation.
Your analysis is almost congruent with mine, tho' you leave out one very, very frightening fact :
Israel has nuclear 'bombs'.
Sitting on the latest version of their Jericho ballistic missile system
Both components having been developed with apartheid South Africa, since :
"Israel and South Africa have one thing above all else in common: they are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples." [1976 Joint Govt statement, reported in the Guardian ]

This discussion demonstrates how hard it is to find truly objective information.

As for "working from where we are" - of course, to some degree that has to happen. The state of Israel cannot just be dismantled even if some of us think that Europe and the US should never have evaded their own responsibilities by allowing the requisition of someone else's land and the continued domination over the displaced original occupiers.

Nelson Mandela was conciliatory but not to the extent that everything stayed the same. Although the progress for non-white people in South Africa is not as great as it should be, black people are not second class citizens under the law and are not now subject to measures under apartheid that look very similar to what Palestinians are still being subjected to.

Lilygran The article is blatantly pro-Israeli. A couple of paragraphs at the end which represent a Palestinian perspective do not restore balance to a very unbalanced commentary.

Muslims may well "side" with Muslims and Jews with Jews, but there are many other non-Muslim and non-Jewish people (and some Jewish people)who feel very strongly that the Palestinians have been treated appallingly since having their land and homes taken from them many decades ago.

To compare the Israel/Palestine situation with that of Syria, Iraq, etc., etc. is misleading. What is happening in those countries is akin to civil war arising from differing religious allegiances. These countries have not had their land seized from them, been hemmed into an increasingly smaller and smaller densely populated strip of land whose borders are controlled by someone else, or been subject to different laws from those that rule them, etc. etc.

As to whether Hamas would still continue their actions even if they achieved everything they wanted, it may well be the case that some members of Hamas would carry on - as a small minority in Ireland still rails against the peace process and commits isolated acts of terrorism. However, I believe that the majority would want a peacefully negotiated - but just - resolution of their grievances.

If Hamas uses civilians as human shields, that is despicable but it still doesn't take away from the basic injustice perpetrated against the Palestinian people on a day-to-day basis.

As to why Israel would want to target citizens - they do it because they want to show ordinary Palestinians what will happen if they continue to resist Israeli might by supporting Hamas. They know they can do it with virtual impunity as the UN has shown itself to be powerless in making them abide by countless resolutions. They are the fourth most heavily militarised country in the world and the sophisticated weaponry and defence shields provided to them by the US means that they can bomb and destroy with virtually no risk to their own civilian population.

Of course those trying to solve this problem need to "work from where we are now", but having an awareness of what has brought everyone to this situation can only help.

When at work as a SW, I was often confronted with people behaving in unacceptable ways, and always had to ask myself what had gone before to create the current situation, before jumping to conclusions and judgments - this international situation is no different. Knowing the background was always a help to finding a solution.

The influence of Zionism stretches into the UK Tory party via political donations and to a much greater extent political donations to political parties in the USA. So neither government are going to stand up to the Zionists conviction that they are both chosen people with a right to that land, the whole of it, and victims. Under these circumstances I think we all feel utterly powerless.

Who says 'we grans' can't see the need to work from where we are now? Taking a look back at the reasons for conflict (on both sides) in the middle east is important to understand why there is more escalation.

What hope for peace if we grans can't at least try to see the need to work from where we are now. The history has happened, I see faults on both sides, Hamas and the Israeli government. In the middle of it are innocent members of both populations. The similarity with Northern Ireland has been well made. The example set by Nelson Mandela was brave and purposeful. That's whats needed here.

If you believe that the Israelis are wholly in the wrong and Hamas composed entirely of victims, of course it will seem to be 'minimising' what the Israelis are doing.

Lilygran I didn't think the article was balanced. I thought it was definitely pro Israeli but in a subtle way. Or at least it attempted to minimise what the Israelis are doing.

Another balanced article that tries to explain the complexity of the issues - how many people on GN will bother to read it because they already know what they want to know? www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

Many thank for that Granny 2X
I didn't know it was Australian as well, all I'd seen is :

The Conversation
is funded by the following universities: Aberdeen, Birmingham, Bradford, Bristol, Cardiff, City, Durham, Glasgow Caledonian, Goldsmiths, Lancaster, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham, The Open University, Queen's University Belfast, Salford, Sheffield, Surrey, UCL and Warwick.

It also receives funding from:
Hefce, Hefcw, SAGE, SFC, RCUK, The Nuffield Foundation, The Ogden Trust, The Wellcome Trust, Esmée Fairbairn Foundation and The Alliance for Useful Evidence

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation_(website)

Background info on the website

That's two good links to the conversation now on this thread - hadn't heard of it before. Thanks to both of you

I hope that contributors and readers will find this, from The Conversation, of interest:

Nurit Peled-Elhanan
Lecturer, School of Education at Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

https://theconversation.com/as-a-sakharov-laureate-and-a-mother-i-call-on-the-eu-to-help-save-palestinians-and-israel-29597?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The+Weekend+Conversation+-+1810&utm_content=The+Weekend+Conversation+-+1810+CID_04a6aba57068c28c63fccd6c8f2e54f6&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=Nurit%20Peled-Elhanan

The US is made up of almost half of what was Mexico, which they annexed (and treat as their own) in the 1840s, after eating up all of Texas und California which was also Mexican, then they of all peoples are not going to wave a flag with the slogan ''Everyone back to their own borders.'' when they negotiate with Israel ?
Did anyone hear the radio interview with the Israeli journalist living in Israel, who had taken a liberal stand on the present conflict? The family house had been attacked, car destroyed, was receiving death threats, and the family could no longer leave the house?

I think that MAP is a good charity to give to if people want to donate. I do so regularly and also support smaller local charities for the blind ( my great grandfather became blind as did my grandmother).

Obviously I see it strongly from the Palestinian viewpoint and you have to understand that the infrastructure has been deliberately & steadily eroded over time, to not only reduce Palestinian land, but also to the point that Israel controls most things in Gaza (water/electricity etc) as well as controlling access to the West Bank. I see that the ' attacks' on Israel by Palestinians as understandable resistance against the powerful occupiers. I would prefer a negotiated solution.

The lack if infrastructure also includes poor/non existent Palestinian media /PR which conversely oozes out of Israel and promotes their perception of the situation to the world. Now the world is anti-Islamic Israel is laughing as it knows that most governments will be reluctant to offer support to a Muslim group/country.

There is also the erosion and denial of Palestinian culture which is a strategy to undermine world perception of the people to make them appear primitive and in need of 'Western' management.

If this thread is one sided , I think it's because it's very representative of public opinion at the moment . And, I agree with GJ, both sides are not equally to blame. Faults on both sides yes.