Self-deprecation

Thank you Bags a great article (where do you find them all?)
I posted a little while ago about how when I was looking for staff the overconfident CVs and candidates were a turn-off, compared to those who displayed a natural modesty.
I think self-efficacy (the belief that you can do something) is far more important than self-esteem.
I've just read Sheryl Sandberg's book Lean In. Whilst I have a view reservations about the book, her mantra "What would you do if you weren't afraid?" Stayed with me and I wish someone had said that to me when I was 16!

Finding pointers to such stuff is one of the main uses of Twitter for me, jane.

That quote you give of Sheryl Sandberg's 'mantra' is good. I wish someone had said it to me when I was sixteen as well!

Yes, I like Mary Wakefield's views. Reminds me of a conversation I listened to amongst a group of professional women who were talking about people they liked working with. One said, 'for me, there is nothing as attractive as that person who has nothing to prove.'

Interesting article that in the main I agree with, but what if you're the child of parents who believe this to such an extend that their children feel it's somehow 'wrong' to celebrate personal achievement? What if you grow up being taught that success is something to hide, in case as a consequence of your success someone else feels they've failed?
There is a balance to be struck, as in most things.

Yes, somewhere between the two extremes. But it is (or was) typically British English.

grannya I agree about balance, but I don't think the article was suggesting that children and young people should not be allowed to feel proud that they have been successful.
It was more a criticism of the advice that often seems to be given to them to 'big themselves up' and make more of their achievements than is perhaps really merited.

Some of today's children have been allowed to "big themselves up" far too much. To the extent even, that they now think they are the centre of the universe and everything should be done for them. Unfortunately their lazy parents agree with them, so long as the 'doing everything' is done by someone else and not them.

I think self depreciation can be overdone as can the American model. The answer lies somewhere in the middle. One could almost call it honesty?

Exactly, Galen. I have read many letters of application for teaching jobs and it was ridiculously easy to see which candidates were exaggerating their own achievements. If they got to the interview stage, they were soon brought down to earth. Don't think we ever had one who was excessively humble, but we appreciated the honest ones.

I always thought self-deprecation was the odd remark you made when someone over describes you: Ask X, they are the crossword expert' and you reply with a self-deprecatory remark about being good at saying cross words.

Having said that, I have long believed that self-esteem is a very dangerous concept, esteem is something earned from others who recognise what in you is admirable, self-esteem is narcissim, convincing yourself that you are wonderful regardless of the evidence and it can be very damaging when this belief is undermined by academic or work failure.

What we should be teaching our children and young people is self-respect and self confidence and the second comes from the first. They should know that regardless of their talents and abilities they have a right to be treated justly, fairly and equally and that their bodies are their own and no one but they should decide how they look and the limits to body access. If children know that they will have the confidence to accept that nobody is good at everything, that failure is part and parcel of life and we have to be able to accept we have limitations.

Which brings me back to the article. Bragging, boasting, singing your own praises, is unpleasant and puts people off but there is nothing to stop somebody talking about what they have done and how effective it was in the appropriate place to the appropriate person. When DH, an engineering project manager, was working he was constantly exasperated by young graduates claiming they had played a significant management role in every project they had ever worked on. As he said if they were to be believed the Channel Tunnel was built by 50,000 managers and the tea boy.

Surely the tea boy was part of the management substructure?

...and I am sure that on his CV he said he was responsible for managing the catering department for a company with 50,000 employees! It is just DH responsibilities didn't include catering.

A little self-deprecation is, I think, healthy and endearing. There is nothing so annoying as someone who is always blowing his/her own trumpet.

But if a person continually puts himself/herself down, they are either being overly modest for fear of alienating other people or they genuinely feel inadequate - neither of which is desirable.

As Galen said, there is a happy medium.

As several people said

It is interesting to think about how children develop a sense that they are not the centre of the universe and that others might be better at things than they are. My 2.5 year old GS is adorable - ebullient , full of life and affectionate - but when he enters a room he bounds in and throws his arms wide and says "I'm here!" with such a sense of - well everything's fine now I'm here! It is very endearing. Part of me does not want him to lose that.

I cannot bear that sort of US-style talking oneself up - I find it utterly nauseating. It is so self-indulgent. For me it goes hand in hand with some of the more sickly self-help books and talks.

When I used to interview candidates for jobs, I always favoured those who had a very clear idea of their strengths and weaknesses and were able to discuss their training and development needs, as well as those things where they could start in straight away with confidence.

I once interviewed a young graduate who claimed on her form that her outside interests included archaeology and she had worked on an archaeological excavation.

Unfortunately (for her), my main outside interest is archaeology so when the interview started, to relax her and build up a rapport I started to ask her a few questions about her interest in archaeology, but stopped quickly when I realised she actually knew very little about the subject.

She was the best candidate for the job and got it, but we did discuss the matter later, it was before Time Team, she had done a couple of days on a dig while at school and enjoyed TV programmes about the past, but as she admitted she had written it all up because she thought it would look good on her form. She never expected to be interviewed by someone who actually knew something about the subject. She said she had learned a lesson and would never again put anything on a cv that she could not substantiate.

I very much doubt that the journalist who wrote the article goes around putting herself down and lurking in the shade or she would have no work as a journalist.
I agree with grannyactivist - balance is a good thing. There is a cultural norm in the US that you should say you are wonderful. The cultural norm in the UK is that you should be modest and at times put yourself down. The worst culprits when it comes to putting themselves down are, I am afraid, middle aged women. There are also large numbers of young people who do not have many feelings of self worth. Not everyone has adoring parents constantly boost their ego.
Start counting the number of times you hear a middle aged woman say "I'm very good at..."

Reading this article I was reminded of the last series of Outnumbered when Karen was hauled up before the Headmistress who said "Well of course at primary school they give you gold stars for breathing" It summed it all up really.

The talking oneself up thing always comes over very strongly in The Apprentice. The more self confident they are the more they come unstuck when they actually have to do some of the things they claim to be brilliant at. There seems to be a whole generation growing up that believes that really wanting to do something is the same as having some talent for it and actually learning to do it.

At the other extreme you have people like my late MiL whose attitude was always "being me I'm bound to be wrong" which was just as annoying!

As an elderly woman, I'm afraid to say that I'm no good at anything!
I'm obviously a nonproductive member of modern society and a drain on resources that are being provided for by the modern generation!
Do you think I should just take an overdose of painkillers?
Or throw myself off a cliff? ( prefer the former as I'm frightened by heights)
Feeling like doing option no 1 at present!

Galen I hope you feel better this morning. You are good at being brave and positive in the face of many difficulties.

Not a whole generation deeda just part of it. There are still many kids growing up convinced they are a waste of space. Or only worth something as long as they look pretty.

As a Scot I was brought up to the tune of "I kent his faither" which is uttered as a mantra to take a person back to their (modest)roots and puncture any whisper of self aggrandisement. As a Scot, a woman and also of a certain age, I have no illusions about knowing anything, achieving anything or being "anybody". Oh for a little bit of self-importance in my genetic mix!

Galen, your comments about ageing remind me of my dad. He told us there's nothing to recommend old age, except the alternative. I am aware of becoming increasingly invisible, as most older women do. Don't jump of a cliff - we'd miss you too much

Galen I think you should tell your daughter you are feeling like that.