grammar question

Just to be clear the last bit of my last post was not referring to anyone on this thread.
It is just that I feel strongly that people should be allowed to write freely on here without having to look over their shoulders at the grammar and spelling police.
And I also believe that you learn to write by writing and not by learning a load of grammatical constructions that you then string together.
Shakespeare made spelling mistakes and coined hundreds of new words and phrases....

(preceeding ... I must learn to check Grammar and spelling before I post- I type fast and never check - ooops) (and of course 'no particular' in previous post).

Ahhh Mamie, the dreaded precedding direct object catches many natives too ;)

It's been quite a while since I taught beginner German- so it may well be true that the concept of direct and indirect object is taught nowadays. I then became a 6th Form specialist- but even then some had to be reminded. Much easier to teach German to French speakers who do know the difference, as it is important in French, but not quite as important as in German.

The other day, on the local expat forum, I used the word 'scorchio' in jest as it was soooo hot- and I got my head bitten off! I like the way Shakespeare invented 2700 words- often from foreign words, like 'zany' for the Italian Giovanni, and (aptly here ;) ) to rant, from the Dutch 'speak foolishly'.

Did you have a look at the test for eleven-year-olds Bellanonna? The children do learn grammar.
There was a time in the late seventies and eighties when we spent far less time teaching grammar and far more time writing with children in primary school. The balance was wrong and the literacy strategy was brought in to improve the teaching of grammar, which it did. You could criticise the speed at which it was brought in, the lack of materials at the beginning and the number of changes. You could not argue that children in primary schools do not "do" grammar anymore.

I am not at all convinced by this notion of a Golden Age, when everyone was brilliant at English grammar. From my observations, plenty of people in all age groups make mistakes in grammar and spelling.
If I wanted to be really provocative I might say that pedants who are only interested in grammatical constructions have very little of interest to say....

That's interesting gj. The person who teaches me German at U3A has often commented on her former pupils' lack of English grammar. As you say, it is essential to be aware of what direct and indirect objects are to get the right German article. She did, however, find she had to teach other fairly basic concepts that one would expect them to know in English. She retired only recently from full -time education. My daughter is head of MFL, teaching French and Spanish and often comments on the girls' poor grasp of English grammar, and this in a grammar school. Those of us in the German class have all had a good, old-fashioned grounding in the basics of our own language from way back. But I take your point that it may not be essential to be too analytical in teaching English.

BTW GJ, that reminds me of a very funny conversation with my French neighbours about the past tense of avoir verbs and the preceding direct object. No, it doesn't agree they said. Yes it does, said I. Oh well yes maybe I can hear it, said one.
Which proves, as you say, that you don't always need to know all the grammar of your own language unless you need it to understand a foreign language.

Going back a few posts - Ethel, I would say, for example, " I don't speak Chinese" rather than I can't. The latter implies an admission of failure or regret. Saying you don't drive is acceptable imo.

I think you would find that they are now GJ! (They certainly were when I was observing English lessons ten years ago). I don't doubt that children sometimes forget things that they have been taught though.

So, luggage, mimic, blushing? Who is this young upstart from Stratford inventing words all over the place? He has even invented the word pedant. What is that supposed to mean? The English language is going to the dogs....
Etc etc

Thank you Mamie. Of course kids are taught grammar, and from a very young age too.

But not the way perhaps we were taught- eg sentence analysis, etc. When I used to teach German in UK (and French my language)- I was puzzled that English kids didn't know what a 'direct object' or an 'indirect object' was and discussed it with our English dept. They said it bore little difference in the use of English- and I agreed. I always spent 1 week at the end of the first half-term teaching in English about 'subject, direct and indirect object, etc' as it is almost impossible to learn German without understanding this. I just accepted that the Grammar the children needed for German was of not particular use at this stage for the children in English, and got on with it.

Other past papers, including maths and science are here.
www.satstestsonline.co.uk/sto_past_papers.aspx

Not taught grammar?
Here is a link to just part of the grammar tests taken by eleven year olds in England.
www.satstestsonline.co.uk/past_papers/SPAG/SPAG_Paper_1_short_answer_questions.pdf

It's not true that kids aren't told that they are wrong sometimes; nor is it true that they never fail, and know they have failed, at things.

I actually think that experiencing a few failures is good for a person.

Bring back Domestic Science is almost worthy of a thread of its own Bothie

Good old fashioned grammar, along with good old domestic science should come back onto the curriculum. No-one, these days, seems to think kids should be told they are wrong or fail at things.

The latter is simply a consequence of the former.

Well if they can't drive then they don't drive what's dishonest about that?

It annoys me when people say, 'I don't drive', when they mean they cant drive. Its dishonest. Example DD can drive but chooses not to so she doesn't drive but some cant and say they don't.

GrandmaKT thank you for finding that explanation! (still think it's a bit daft!)

Yes! Me too!

Yes, that's one that sets my teeth on edge too!

Along with 'the amount of people...' when it should be 'the number of people'.

The error that really annoys me is 'less people.......' It should be 'fewer people......less should be used with uncountable nouns and fewer with countable.

And has anyone else noticed that things don't escalate these days? They esculate! Especially on the BBC.Drives me mad.

Greyduster - according to Wikipedia "The Cee’d is Kia’s first European-designed and built car and Kia intends to sell and manufacture the car exclusively in Europe. To mark the occasion, Kia took the initials of the European Economic Community, EEC or CEE in some places and added ED for European Design. Realising that "CEEED" had too many ‘E’s, they replaced the last 'E' with an apostrophe, with "Cee'd" being the end result." So now we know!

Android has the upper hand there. Both my phone and my tablet give me the choice between its and it's.

Mr iPad only knows it's. I have an argument every time and often forget to correct it. So forgive me if it's crops up in the wrong place!