No wonder our prisons are full

I've just been looking online to find out more about IPP sentences which have interested me for some time:
From what I have read the offender had to be convicted of a violent or sexual crime that carried a maximum prison sentence of 10 years or more. However despite the fact that the court believed the offender presented a high, ongoing danger of causing serious harm to the public, the judge had to have decided that the specific crime did not justify a full life sentence. As I understand it the average time served on a life sentence in the UK actually around 16-17 years, yet some of these prisoners have served longer than this.
IPP sentences were abolished in 2012, so any prisoners still serving one will have done at least 14 years or, realistically, almost a life sentence.
I've read about how prisoners have been told that they can't get parole unless they complete certain courses within their prisons, but that some of these course are not available where they are being held.
As regards the story of the vicar's brother serving an IPP for phone theft, I am a little dubious as I don't see how this crime can have been considered to be "a high, ongoing danger of causing serious harm to the public" unless the perpetrator was very violent indeed.

The issue of offenders with mental health problems is a complicated one. There are far too many people with mental health conditions in prison when they should be in secure mental health hospitals. However, we have seen that the media portray this as a "soft option". Also, prison health departments are often understaffed and therefore can't provide the treatment prisoners require.

In recent years, particularly with the Conservative government's austerity policies, the CJS too often took the brunt of cuts to public services as very little attention was paid to it. Now the impact of those cuts is very obvious and suddenly people are waking up to the realities of underfunding this vital public service.

Indefinite IPP sentences were introduced by Blunket: a serious mistake and abandoned in 2012 but not with retrospective effect Shame on both major Parties.

For what my opinion is worth (nothing to the policy-makers, I guess), the core problem is, and always has been, that prisons don't have the room or the funds to treat people as individuals. "We need more and better prisons" is easy to say (I'm saying it too) but it's very hard to achieve a better system for dealing with people who break the law when money is short and we have a lot of other institutions which also need more funding and better management (the NHS springs immediately to mind). I imagine that if, each citizen was asked where taxpayers' money should be spent, not many would put prisons at the top of the list. So we get people in prison who shouldn't be and people let out who should be kept in. Some people argue that prison should not be a comfortable experience; others argue that treating people harshly only results in a negative attitude, leading to re-offending. People have been arguing and discussing all this for as long as prisons have been in existence. I don't know the effective answer and I doubt whether anyone else does.

I thought Victorian asylums had been abolished, but here we are with people being kept in prison with undetermined sentences.
My goodness we treat illegal asylum seekers better, than help rehabilitate these prisoners or help them be placed in appropriate mental health facilities.
With regard to young thugs, they need to be given discipline through national service as a sentence. Some of them regard a stint in prison as a badge of honour, and brag about it. It doesn’t teach them anything meaningful.
Personally I believe that a lot of judges are past their sell by date, and totally removed from ordinary people’s life experience.
The whole system requires a fresh overhaul, with the various agencies involved actually dovetailing their common aim and efficacy.

they were put way as IPP imprisonment for public protection, then the system totally forgot about them, a young life wasted , if you pich a phone these days you get 10 hours community service, i know their families fought for them but surely the press shoule have cottoned on to this or someone, its disgraeful whilst men with machetes roam our street

Our prisons are full partly because society has demanded more punitive and longer sentences and governments have reacted to this. Community sentences, rightly or wrongly, have not been seen as proper "punishment".

IPP's were brought in to offer more serious sentences for repeat offenders who were seen to be a risk to the community but were not eligible for life sentences. However, many more people were given IPP's than was anticipated, hence the problem we have now.

I do not agree with the view that judges are out of touch. They can only sentence people based on sentencing guidelines laid down by Government. I have worked in both Magistrates and Crown Courts and if I were in the dock I would rather be sentenced by a long serving, experienced Judge than a Magistrates bench.

Sarnia

Sound like Victorian times, except for the phone. They used to incarcerate people for trivial things back then. Why don't the powers that be do something about it?

I thought they had decided to release people who were on indefinite IPP sentences

To go slightly off piste I heard today that the conservatives closed 23 prisons and reduced staffing levels in functioning prisons.

"With regard to young thugs, they need to be given discipline through national service as a sentence."

Why should the Forces have to deal with young offenders?
Besides which, those young people who join willingly may not want to be living and working alongside criminals.

There are Young Offenders Institutions where children are kept separate from young adults and where they should receive rehabilitation. Unfortunately, this does not always seem to be the case so that is another area which the Government needs to re-address.

and where they should receive rehabilitation.
And education.

JenniRen I’m not suggesting that young thugs be given national service with normal force recruits. They would have to have specific training camps elsewhere so that routine, discipline, boundaries and respect is prescribed as a sentence.
A lot of them have no guidance whatsoever. Surely this would help a lot if them who appear lost and therefore end up with uninspiring people.

gransruleok I saw that presentation and thought just what you did. However apparently the prisoner in question has been a ‘nightmare’ whilst incarcerated. His sister is a Reverend so surely she would know how to assist her brother?

The whole system needs to be examined. There are not enough hostels to help ex prisoners into society. Let us be honest nobody really wants a prison or a prison hostel next to where we live.
I am not saying that people who have committed murder should not be put in gaol but many of them are not a danger to society . The person they killed was generally due to revenge - eg a wife who has had an affair, the person who attacked the prisoners child etc. It was a one off event .
Prison staff on the other hand are not trained to deal with the mentally ill who are put in prison as there is no other place for them to go.
I hope it does not happen now but about 20 years ago there was an elderly lady put in prison for not paying her council tax. She was an owner of a shop which no longer trading and empty. She did not want to pay business rates - especially when an empty hotel was not obliged to pay its rates. I do know she got upset when some nice person paid the bill on her behalf as she wanted to stay in prison as a protest to the unfair system of business rates.

Nurseundercover

JenniRen I’m not suggesting that young thugs be given national service with normal force recruits. They would have to have specific training camps elsewhere so that routine, discipline, boundaries and respect is prescribed as a sentence.
A lot of them have no guidance whatsoever. Surely this would help a lot if them who appear lost and therefore end up with uninspiring people.

No, it should not be down to the Armed Forces to rehabilitate young offenders. Their purpose is entirely different and they are under-manned and under-resourced as it is.
Their purpose is to defend us and keep us safe, not be part of the Criminal Justice System.

If sentenced, the young offenders should be sent to those Institutions best able to deal with them.

Totally agree, with this post, judges should retire, also petty crime and especially social
Media posting! Should not carry a prison sentence. Petty crime that’s on repeat is different. Poor man, lots like him in there.

As regards forcing judges to retire and House of Lords the same, we need to bear in mind that there is no longer compulsory retirement at any age. However I beleive there needs to be some test of competence. Back in the 1980s as union rep in my workplace I took on the case of a co-worker who had been told she had to retire at 60 while another in a differnt role did not have the same conditions applied. Both were competent in their roles but one was easier to replace with a younger person! I won her an extra year but she had to retire at 61 - it came down to her being given enough notice.
Since then compulsory retirement age ceased to exist. Forcing judges to retire might cause a shortage resulting in long delays for people to go to court. Delays are already pretty unacceptable so it's another problem without an easy solution!

Judges do retire. I’m not sure why the suggestion is they don’t.

iPP’s were aimed at repeat offenders who had committed serious violent or sexual offences. It was a poor policy, later revoked. This focus on the allegation that one man remains incarcerated simply because he stole a mobile phone, then developed mh problems is clearly a distorted version of reality.
We do not have enough background on this individual to use his tragic, complex circumstances as the reason to suggest all prisoners on IPPs should be released. This is one of many headaches the CJC and parliament are grappling with. We imprison too many people, we have lost the Probation Service, so desperately needed now.

IMO this focus on one case detracts from the significant issues of public protection, crime committed by organised crime groups and those with mh/substance dependant problems.

How about closing womens prisons except for the really dangerous ones. and put the men in those.

Nan99

How about closing womens prisons except for the really dangerous ones. and put the men in those.

That would free up very few places and any places freed would probably be unsuitable for male prisoners except for those in the low risk category.

And how will existing buildings be managed in a way that protects the women? I know it’s under consideration but no easy solutions. Recruitment and retention a significant problem.
I wish Andy Burnham’s government well and recognise Keir Starmer was right to state how bad things were, even though his gloom added to the reasons he’s no longer PM

nanna8
Why he wasn't wrongly convicted!