Plan to Reverse Brexit With European Defence?

Is no good agonising about leaving the EU, I was bitterly opposed to it but it is what it is.
Now Starmer has to go cap in hand at a time of political unrest when we need our European allies because the special relationship we thought we had with the US is pie in the sky. We have effectively left ourselves wide open to any possible attack and our sovereignty is no defence without strong allies by our side.
So cap in hand we have to go through the back door. Am hoping and praying it will be enough to persuade our European allies to close ranks with ourselves and Norway part of that defence bloc.

It isn’t about reversing Brexit. It’s about dealing with what is a new world order ( which should have been taken into account by the Brexit supporters but we are where we are unfortunately.

Is no good agonising about leaving the EU, I was bitterly opposed to it but it is what it is.

You're right, of course, Fallingstar but it still hurts.

I seem to recall that 'European Army' was one of the hate issues promoted by the Leave side. It all seems very ironic now. not only because of Trump but also the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

It does hurt MaizieD, and I will never forget it, but now is about damage limitation by making sure the UK is shoulder to shoulder with European allies, and am no fan of Starmer but believe he is doing his best to make sure this happens.

I don’t think Starmer is going cap in hand to Europe. He was rebuilding our relationship with Europe ( remember what Truss said about France ?) even before he was PM and they regard us as an equal partner in the defence of Europe.

MayBee70

It isn’t about reversing Brexit. It’s about dealing with what is a new world order ( which should have been taken into account by the Brexit supporters but we are where we are unfortunately.

That is precisely what the video says MayBee70.

I'm hoping that our relationship with others outside the EU is a plus that doesn't mean we have to go "cap in hand" Fallingstar.

Although we all know the the government could have done without the external issues when it already had a disaster of an dconomy to sort out - way beyond any recent governments challenges - I'm quite glad it's someone like Starmer dealing with it.

MayBee70
"It isn’t about reversing Brexit. It’s about dealing with what is a new world order ( which should have been taken into account by the Brexit supporters but we are where we are unfortunately."

I agree it is where we are current unfortunately. But the breixit vote was 10 years ago now and all the polls shout the majority polled see Brexit as a mistake and the adverse impact on Uk as a result was not worth it.

There is no guarantee whether the EU would want us back- or what terms they might seek if so and it would take a long time. I would suggest however that any party that makes it part of its manifesto to seek to rejoin would have very strong support.

Not too fussed about which door we use.

AGAA4

Thank you MOnica I have read the speech.
We do need to be ready. Russia is dangerous but need to know that Europe is a sleeping giant that will be ready and equal to them if they should decide on aggression.

Thanks to MOnica.
"I’m talking about a vision of European security and greater European autonomy." (Starmer) . Europe needs to be a united Europe to be strong.

With defence it isn't the difference between the U.K. and EU, it's within the EU that differences are more diverse. I fear that it's going to take a much more immediate threat to make Europe unite for defence.
It took WW2 to unite Europe, we are all too comfortable on our state benefits to make the changes needed

When it comes to defence, Britain punches above its weight.

In a list of the 10 most powerful armies in the world the UK was 6th behind United States, China, Russia, India, South Korea, then the UK. Looking at the size of the first 5 countries and the threat from North Korea, South Korea faces, and nthe cuts and reductions our armed forces have faced. That says to me that taking into account, land area and population we can safely say we have the best armed forces in the world.
www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-worlds-50-most-powerful-militaries/

Europe needs us. We are a major arms manufacturer, and we have military forces that have been regularly in action, as part of larger forces: The Balkans, Falklands, Ireland, Ira Afghanistan and advising, training and supplying arms to Ukraine.

M0nica

When it comes to defence, Britain punches above its weight.

In a list of the 10 most powerful armies in the world the UK was 6th behind United States, China, Russia, India, South Korea, then the UK. Looking at the size of the first 5 countries and the threat from North Korea, South Korea faces, and nthe cuts and reductions our armed forces have faced. That says to me that taking into account, land area and population we can safely say we have the best armed forces in the world.
www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-worlds-50-most-powerful-militaries/

Europe needs us. We are a major arms manufacturer, and we have military forces that have been regularly in action, as part of larger forces: The Balkans, Falklands, Ireland, Ira Afghanistan and advising, training and supplying arms to Ukraine.

The defence spending of European countries is similar in relation to GDP. Except Poland being the highest at double the U.K. spending.
Others including the U.K. need to double spending and more, because warfare has changed, tanks no longer rule the battlefield, technology and drones are going to win the next war, they might even win the Ukraine war

David49
This today
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpqwl10lvr2o

David49 I would not argue with you in the need to spend more money on defence

But the reason Europe need us with the, is that despite our underspend we are still seen as one of the world's most effective armies - and that counts most. You can spend a large amount of your GDP on defence and still find, as the Russians have found, if your soldiers etc are badly trained, poorly armed and recruited from the prisons then they are little more than cannon fodder.

MayBee70

I don’t think Starmer is going cap in hand to Europe. He was rebuilding our relationship with Europe ( remember what Truss said about France ?) even before he was PM and they regard us as an equal partner in the defence of Europe.

I agree with that, I don’t see all this cap in hand stuff at all.The UK is always there with Europe ( we are part of Europe) where defence is concerned.

Thank you, interesting.

Also easy to read.

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-during-the-munich-security-conference-14-february

Britain may punch above its weight milutarily but that does not mean it could resist a full scale war on its own. Collaboration with others - the USA, Europe - is essential for our security.

M0nica

David49 I would not argue with you in the need to spend more money on defence

But the reason Europe need us with the, is that despite our underspend we are still seen as one of the world's most effective armies - and that counts most. You can spend a large amount of your GDP on defence and still find, as the Russians have found, if your soldiers etc are badly trained, poorly armed and recruited from the prisons then they are little more than cannon fodder.

Agreed.

The problem is that we can't win any war by being nice and obeying the rules do war and prosecuting our soldiers when discipline breaks down.

War is a dirty game you don't win by being the nice guy, as we found in Iraq and Afghanistan, nice guys loose.

I'm from America and, along w most Americans, deplore most of what our current corrupt and cruel government does- either actively or through silence. I pray, post and protest- and will soon "Resist and Unsubscribe" to some of our platforms (because our opinions mean nothing to them- just money). I also write to warn you, because I honestly think the rest of the world needs to prepare yourselves for (at best) abandonment and (at worst) attacks. Trump idolizes Putin and Hitler- the world can't underestimate him as they have them. As our cowboys once said: saddle up! #LoveThyNeighbor #Justice

I’m still upset about BREXIT ..we need our European allies/friends…we look weak militarily and this needs action but don’t feel this government has the all their ducks in a row🧐

Thanks NanaMaryNH. Sorry about the hard time you are having across the pond.

Re entry in one way or another would be a good move i in view of the sate of the world at the moment but it will cost us dearly. I understood the integrated defence discussions had fallen through due to the high monetary cost the UK was expected to pay.

We really need to be part of Europe
For our defence , no question , we are far too vulnerable alone 🙀

It's disgusting of Keir Starmer to try and get us back into Europe when we voted out. Politicians did not want Brexit and deliberately mishandled it and that's why it wasn't very successful. I think it's appalling the way they have ignored the decision of the public.

Peaseblossom

It's disgusting of Keir Starmer to try and get us back into Europe when we voted out. Politicians did not want Brexit and deliberately mishandled it and that's why it wasn't very successful. I think it's appalling the way they have ignored the decision of the public.

Times have changed. There is a new world order and political landscape. What happened with Brexit is not compatible with the defence of our country today. And in any case Starmer isn’t trying to undo Brexit, we are still outside the EU but any sensible government would attempt to form closer ties with a European allies/the EU at a time like this.
In all honesty this isn’t about Brexit is about something far more serious and threatening. Surely people can put their differences to one side at a time like this and pull together for the greater good, or suffer the consequences.