Should men be banned from working in nurseries?

Women are guilty of sexual abuse also. (Just check the current American news!) And most people are fine with male doctors, nurses, aides, etc.

The only way I can see of protecting infants is to do more thorough checks before hiring, and maybe have inspections at unannounced times.

You CAN'T have CCTV in compromising situations. That's illegal.

Just a wee bit concerned about CCTV. Prefer the previous practice, described upthread, of two Workers at a time dealing with the variety of toileting issues.
Still think an improved check should be devised, to include checking online behaviour.
An improved check could come about before a law would be passed to ban men. No guarantee such a ban would become law.

Grandmabatty

I don't think a blanket ban would be a good thing. Perhaps nurseries needs to look at intimate care policies and ensure that two adults are always there when changing children. Of course that has staffing issues

Totally agree Grandmabatty.
Sounds over the top to some. But what about CCTV as well?

Men who identify as women are men. There is no issue there.

Astitchintime

So are we only going to have female paediatricians, children’s nurses, neonatal unit staff? The two nurses who inflicted the worst abuse imaginable on defenceless babies and children were both females.

If this were the case, we would clearly be turning the clock back to the days when child-care was solely the province of women.

Would we then ban men from nursing, working in care homes. as midwives, but still accept them as obstetricians or gynaeocologists?

The truth of the matter is that normal, decent people of either (or any sex, for what would you do with men identifying as women or women as men) do not, and never have abused children.

So either we demand that more time during nursery school and school teachers' children's nurses, and paediatricians' training is devoted to ethics and morality, or given to psycological screening of these people, or we demand CCT cameras in all institutions, or two people at least always present where children (or adults with diminished responsibility) are being cared for.

I worked in a nursery 30 years ago. Even then we had a policy of two members of staff taking a child to the toilet.

I think that one thing that might help is to have , as they do for prisons, properly vetted people that can be trusted, who can go in at any time and be entitled to spot check at any time of day or night, with no letters or informing the nursery in advance. It would not solve everything, and there needs to be more care checking references, and finding ways that mean that there are more times when there are at least two people in any area at once, as an ongoing check, but think that the idea of the ability of someone to walk in and check on the spot, and possible speak to the children too.

There are no effective checks for people who haven't been caught. None.

No.

If enhanced checks are a 'waste of time', then the checks are part of the problem. The checks need to be re-vamped. Much better to devise effective checks, than to ban men from the job.

On the contrary, I think more men should be working with children. Women aren't the only nurturing ones on the planet and it gives a rather bleak message if only females are expected to work in childcare. Surely we've moved on from that? The worst abuse case in recent years was a woman working in a nursery (Plymouth, was it? Can't remember)

I agree with an earlier post about not using nurseries before a child is articulate enough to tell you about their time away.
My mother was a bit odd and I didn't trust her with my children unless my father was there.

I don't think a ban is feasible or even reasonable but I do agree that there should be extra measures in place when performing intimate care whether a male or female carer is in place. Obviously this would increase costs which again would be a problem with the cost of already expensive child care.

I worked in nurseries through the 70s and 80s. We had some very caring young men who were great with the children. They provided male role models for children who grew up without dads at home. As time went by most of them left to pursue jobs in education and social work and were able to take their experience to inform their new jobs. They were replaced by young women, mostly caring, but a couple were vindictive and demonstrated unpleasantness to the children and their parents. Some people go into childcare to play out their desires: to punish parents for their own childhoods, or to abuse children because of envy or jealousy. Or very rarely for sexual gratification. Children are open to abuse from any worker and the only way to tackle it is for managers and senior staff to be vigilant and act upon suspicion immediately. Our nursery would have been a poorer place without those young men.

Yes.

Enhanced checks etc are a waste of time! The ones to worry about are those who haven't been caught. If males can't work in nurersies because they 'might' abuse children, should we ban Male nurses, midwives, even doctors 'just in case'. Don't put every man into the same abusing category.

We can choose to include further caring roles, Kandinsky. thank you for the O/P, but you cant personally control any thread,

and it's well within reasonable bounds of caring including the very young children, since its the opinion of many, it's a general issue as well as a specific one

This is not about men working in any other caring profession. It’s purely about men working in nurseries. ( as the thread title states )
And of course we can’t ban men from working in nurseries. It was an hypothetical question.

A ban would be going backwards in term of what I wanted for men and women long, long ago, when I was part of the Womens Liberation Movement.

Most of us wanted our men to be able change, to be able to express emotions, to be great Dads, to be freed of the straitjacket of what men were supposed to be able to do,

just as we wanted women to be able to advance into equal pay and access to jobs and be given a fair deal - as well as protection against the evils that some men do.

To say, "yes", man should be banned is going backwards as far as I am concerned, and I speak as a victim of male abuse too, standing back I can see the straitjacket he was trapped in due to his upbringing.

Men and women have different strengths to offer the world, but being able to care for the small and the vulnerable is part of our different strengths.

KKOB

If you're going to ban males working in nurseries then they should be banned from primary schools. Also, men should be banned from working in women's prisons and women banned from men's. Ban male nurses from women's wards in hospitals and from following a career in midwifery and paediatrics. The list could go on.

Why would you ban them from primary schools? Any intimate contact e.g. sorting out clean underwear has to involve 2 adults, even if only one of them actually assists the child. That applies whether staff are male or female.
Even for SEN provision children are not in my recent experience left alone with a member of staff unless the door is open.
Do I think more men are more likely to take advantage of working with children to abuse them, yes.
But a blanket ban?

While economics mean that staff will be alone with the children - then yes, females only. NOT because 'men are a danger' but because some men are, it is impossible to tell which - and the children's welfare comes far before any notions of equity. Ideally we would pay enough for there to be plenty of staff about all the time.

If you're going to ban males working in nurseries then they should be banned from primary schools. Also, men should be banned from working in women's prisons and women banned from men's. Ban male nurses from women's wards in hospitals and from following a career in midwifery and paediatrics. The list could go on.

I worked with a male nursery worker as long ago as 1972...the kids and parents loved him! He was a retired ballet dancer ( had injured his leg) , not a macho type, nice guy.

I think to blanket ban on men is discriminatory and unfair. There are women who abuse children as well. Most infanticide I can recall was carried out by women. But we won’t ban women. Women would be up in arms if they were told they couldn’t do a certain job. Equality has to work both ways. There are some men doing an excellent job caring for vulnerable people and we would be worse off without them.