Gransnet forums

News & politics

Labour’s policy on the Trans issue

(133 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Tue 25-Jul-23 17:29:14

Anneliese Dodds

We need to recognise that sex and gender are different – as the Equality Act does. We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

I am not hugely knowledgable about this area, but it seems a sensible policy.

Doodledog Tue 25-Jul-23 20:14:53

I agree that it is shocking that a minority has come to wield such power, but the fact is that had the alp stood up to Stonewall in its heyday they would have been accused of transphobia (and possibly the rest of the script that includes racism and homophobia) and there would be people who would have believed it.

I could be wrong of course, but I have always found it impossible to believe that intelligent people couldn’t understand basic biology, so kept the faith that a measured and balanced approach would be taken when they get in. All we can do is hope.

Doodledog Tue 25-Jul-23 20:15:29

‘alp’ should read ‘Labour Party’ 😡

Grantanow Wed 26-Jul-23 14:21:24

Lathyrus

It does but as always the devil is in the detail. I’d like to see those “biological women only” spaces specified before I believe they have a real grasp of the issues and will “defend” those spaces. it rather meaningless.

“Reasonable “ is a subjective concept.

I don't think 'reasonable' is a subjective concept. It means that something can be arrived at by reasoning from A to B. It does not mean that something is broadly acceptable to most people which is how it is often misused.

Doodledog Wed 26-Jul-23 14:25:06

Starmer has spoken up about the matter - 'A woman is an adult human female'

Time will tell whether his interpretation of 'female' is someone who is born a baby human female, but this could be another step in the right direction.

Cynical, maybe (and I won't forget that had the tide not turned recently he may have been prepared to sell women out), but my cautious optimism is becoming a little bit less cautious.

Lathyrus Wed 26-Jul-23 14:26:40

The thing is both “sides” think they are “reasonable, in that they can give reasons for their stance. You only have to look at some of the trans threads on here.

Take do

Doodledog Wed 26-Jul-23 14:30:39

The thing is both “sides” think they are “reasonable, in that they can give reasons for their stance. You only have to look at some of the trans threads on here.

I don't think the trans lobby can give reasons for their stance. No-one has ever explained what 'feeling like a woman' means. Or 'being in the wrong body'. Or what the difference is between a male-bodied transwoman and a man in a dress. Those questions have been asked over and over (amongst others) but never answered.

Lathyrus Wed 26-Jul-23 14:31:18

Fat finger

Take sport

Transwomen should not compete in women’s events because they have a physical advantage through being male,

All competitive sports relies on one person being physically superior in some way to another. Transwomen should not be excluded on the grounds of physical superiority.

There both quite reasonable arguments in terms of logic.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 26-Jul-23 14:35:02

MerylStreep

They can promise all they want, but, wait until they get into power and certain factions threaten not to support them unless they do as they dictate.

Rather like Sunak, Johnson, May etc. all in thrall to the right of their party.

Doodledog Wed 26-Jul-23 14:35:55

Yes, but transwomen (aka men) competing against women means that women are at a huge disadvantage, and removes the point of having women's sport.

Why not just have one team, with men and women in it, or races with both sexes competing? Men would win most of the time, of course, but who cares about that?

AGAA4 Wed 26-Jul-23 14:38:46

I would like to think that Labour have changed stance on this issue but will reserve judgement till after the GE.
Strangely I have little faith in what politicians say this close to an election.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 26-Jul-23 14:39:58

Lathyrus

Fat finger

Take sport

Transwomen should not compete in women’s events because they have a physical advantage through being male,

All competitive sports relies on one person being physically superior in some way to another. Transwomen should not be excluded on the grounds of physical superiority.

There both quite reasonable arguments in terms of logic.

Not in my opinion. Testosterone undoubtedly gives a male an advantage. At puberty, their heart, lung, muscle mass becomes much larger than the female. If they subsequently decide to trans they retain that advantage and it is entirely unfair. How many trans female to male take part in competing sport alongside men?

Lathyrus Wed 26-Jul-23 14:43:57

No, not in my opinion either. It was an argument that has been advanced several times on the trans threads.

I think I was trying to show that Grantanowsvoncept of reason taking you inevitably from A to B doesn’t always work.

So “reasonable for biological women “ is a very woolly statement.

Doodledog Wed 26-Jul-23 14:50:51

Lathyrus

No, not in my opinion either. It was an argument that has been advanced several times on the trans threads.

I think I was trying to show that Grantanowsvoncept of reason taking you inevitably from A to B doesn’t always work.

So “reasonable for biological women “ is a very woolly statement.

I know what you're getting at, but again, I've yet to see coherent reasons for accepting that anyone who says they are a woman is one.

Despite my cautious optimism I am still a bit cynical. Whilst I can see the point of simplifying the process for a GRC, I wonder whether the need for just one doctor will result in clinics staffed by trans supporters dishing them out to all applicants. I am also unsure about the use of the term, 'safe spaces' instead of 'single sex spaces'. Where it doesn't matter if men are in women's spaces they are just 'public'. It's only necessary for them to be single sex when it is not safe for men to be there.

VioletSky Wed 26-Jul-23 14:51:30

Yes, exactly why I support Labour, moderate fair approach

Doodledog Wed 26-Jul-23 14:54:49

VioletSky

Yes, exactly why I support Labour, moderate fair approach

Do you have insider knowledge of what the ambiguous terms mean, then? I also support Labour, but am unsure about some of it, for the reasons I've stated.

MerylStreep Wed 26-Jul-23 14:56:11

Whitewavemark2

MerylStreep

They can promise all they want, but, wait until they get into power and certain factions threaten not to support them unless they do as they dictate.

Rather like Sunak, Johnson, May etc. all in thrall to the right of their party.

You’re perfectly correct. That’s why I won’t be voting for any party.

Doodledog Wed 26-Jul-23 14:58:09

MerylStreep

Whitewavemark2

MerylStreep

They can promise all they want, but, wait until they get into power and certain factions threaten not to support them unless they do as they dictate.

Rather like Sunak, Johnson, May etc. all in thrall to the right of their party.

You’re perfectly correct. That’s why I won’t be voting for any party.

Your call of course, but then you will be giving your vote to whichever party has the best chance in your constituency, so you are, effectively voting in absentia.

Lathyrus Wed 26-Jul-23 15:33:12

They only have to list the “spaces” that they think reasonable for biological women only, for there to be clear understanding of the policy.

If there’s no specifics there’s no meaningful policy.

Doodledog Wed 26-Jul-23 15:39:47

Yep. Just as saying that a woman is an AHF doesn't mean a lot without saying what he thinks a transwoman is.

Blossoming Wed 26-Jul-23 15:56:16

I don’t trust them. I have seen and heard too much over the last 5 years.

Ilovecheese Wed 26-Jul-23 15:59:57

Will they be simplyfiing the process of applying for disability benefits too, or can they remain ccomplicated?

Glorianny Wed 26-Jul-23 16:05:12

The problem is that you cannot legislate for certain spaces without imposing unnecessary and intrusive processes on all people which some women will object to. I certainly would object if a local sports centre demanded to know my natal gender, it would be female but why should I have to explain that to anyone? What you are then saying is that because you fear that some person may insinuate themselves into a certain space all women must conform and produce evidence to prove they are women. Sorry but that is really not advancing the cause of feminism at all, quite the opposite.
So how would you designate these spaces? How would you ensure only ADF entered them and what would you do to any person who infringed that.
I know the reply will be as always "It isn't up to me" but in my opinion asking for a policy with no clear idea of how it will be applied is simply irresponsible. If you have no idea why should any of our politicians know?

Doodledog Wed 26-Jul-23 16:28:28

Glorianny

The problem is that you cannot legislate for certain spaces without imposing unnecessary and intrusive processes on all people which some women will object to. I certainly would object if a local sports centre demanded to know my natal gender, it would be female but why should I have to explain that to anyone? What you are then saying is that because you fear that some person may insinuate themselves into a certain space all women must conform and produce evidence to prove they are women. Sorry but that is really not advancing the cause of feminism at all, quite the opposite.
So how would you designate these spaces? How would you ensure only ADF entered them and what would you do to any person who infringed that.
I know the reply will be as always "It isn't up to me" but in my opinion asking for a policy with no clear idea of how it will be applied is simply irresponsible. If you have no idea why should any of our politicians know?

Is ADF a typo or another acronym?

I don't think it is up to me to solve this, any more than it is up to me to tell people how to ensure shoplifters don't shoplift, or smugglers don't smuggle. I'm not asking for a new policy, but a return to what has been custom and practice for many years.

How did it work before?

There would have been a very few transwomen in female spaces. They would be trying to 'pass' and unlikely to want to draw attention to themselves, so highly unlikely to cause any issues, and very few people would care. On the whole, women and girls go to the Ladies to relieve themselves, touch up their make-up, and maybe get away from men. If there were transwomen there they would not have had beards, leggings showing that they were obviously male, and would not have been aggressive. If a woman felt uncomfortable she could have asked for help from staff and be assumed to be right, rather than called transphobic and have the manager insist that the transwoman has a right to try on prom dresses in a changing room full of Muslim girls.

These are the sorts of people women object to, as we have said all along. There has not been a huge swell of transphobia, although as we have also said all along, the posturing blokes in frocks haven't helped the trans cause at all.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't care if Hayley from Corrie was in the Ladies in her red coat, but I would not be happy with Eddie Izzard prancing about frightening teenagers.

The idea that Ladies Rooms should accommodate transwomen and the 'gender-neutral' means that our facilities are even more crowded than before - that should stop, IMO. Where there are changes to existing facilities, the Gents should accommodate male-bodied transwomen, and unisex loos should be proportional to the number of people with GRCs - not one on every floor in a university.

That may or may not work - I am not a Building Services Manager.

I also think that groups such as the WI should have the right to refuse entry to men - again, that could go back to being discretionary as was always the case.

Mollygo Wed 26-Jul-23 16:28:39

It should be made clear on a GRC whether or not the holder has had surgery re their gender change. It should also show the birth sex and state that the person remains that sex, regardless of their gender recognition.
You might not want to declare your birth sex before entry to facilities for females when asked.
Males certainly wouldn’t want to admit they were male if they were trying to enter female facilities and males doing exactly that has caused the need to ask.
So thank men for causing your problem.

Glorianny Wed 26-Jul-23 16:37:01

Interesting two conflicting answers one which blames men and thinks people will carry a GRC with them (they don't their passports etc are corrected to designate them as the gender they have changed to).
One saying some transwomen will get into female spaces but some shouldn't.
Just proves it isn't just politicians who don't really know what to do.