Oracy in state schools

I currently visit a lot of primary schools through my work, it's probably also worth noting that it is common now for a nursery to have approx a third of a class of children with quite complex additional needs.

A child whose friends and family all use similar speech patterns
might be laughed at if he or she starts to speak differently, a
child might be accused of 'getting above him/herself.

How true Doodledog "know your place and stay there!"

Yes, Galaxy, it was exactly like that at the primary that I worked at since around 2005.
And year on year the number grew.

Going back to Angela Rayner. It’s intended to compare and contrast her treatment to Boris Johnson.
She is far, far more eloquent than he ever was; sometimes he could barely string a sentence together.
But because of his accent, the cap doffers and forelock tuggers thought him eloquent.

If Johnson spoke with what is perceived as a working class regional accent, his inarticulacy would be laid bare.

Interesting- not intended 🙄

I think it is important to teach children to argue their point, and to do that, they need to see beyond the way their 'opponents' present themselves, to what is actually being said. That means getting past irrelevances such as accent, or minor differences of grammar, and looking at the actual argument.

It can be difficult to do that if you get used to people who 'talk nicely' being deferred to, and those who speak using dialect or non-standard forms of English being pilloried (and yes, Angela Rayner is a great example of this).

In my work I often heard students from public school backgrounds getting respect (from other students) for arguments that were full of holes, and those from comprehensives having to try much harder to get their ideas heard. It is silly to pretend that this doesn't happen way beyond the education sector. Excrementum vincit cerebellum, as the Romans never said .

It's not all about accent - it is about confidence, poise and a learned ability to put your point across. People used to go to university simply to learn rhetoric. That is where the later idea of 'grammar schools' came from, too. It is taught in public school, and Starmer wants to extend that into the state sector. If this initiative gets people over that hurdle I think it will be a good thing.

Oracy is also very much about active listening, which frequently seems absent from the more bombastic speakers.

Mamie

Oracy is also very much about active listening, which frequently seems absent from the more bombastic speakers.

Yes - you can't argue against something if you haven't listened to what is being said.

You have just described most debate on social media doodledog

Ha ha!

Still not sure about this oracy. Is Keir Starmer saying he wants to make it government policy to teach oracy skills in all state schools. Is the delivery of it at the moment voluntary and therefore varies?

I can imagine some very shy children being absolutely terrified at the prospect of public speaking. But I agree it will be so good for their confidence once they've had a go and got used to doing it. Good idea Keir.

Greta

Still not sure about this oracy. Is Keir Starmer saying he wants to make it government policy to teach oracy skills in all state schools. Is the delivery of it at the moment voluntary and therefore varies?

Speaking and Listening is part of the National Curriculum and has been statutory for many years. Governments sometimes create national projects to enhance different aspects of existing requirements.

grannyrebel7

I can imagine some very shy children being absolutely terrified at the prospect of public speaking. But I agree it will be so good for their confidence once they've had a go and got used to doing it. Good idea Keir.

I think many children have anxiety after the lockdowns too.

Some children who were quite confident in the security of small primary schools also feel anxiety when thrust into the different atmosphere of a huge comprehensive school too.

It's a good idea but needs sensitivity applied too.

I think it is now described as Spoken Language.

Mamie

Greta

Still not sure about this oracy. Is Keir Starmer saying he wants to make it government policy to teach oracy skills in all state schools. Is the delivery of it at the moment voluntary and therefore varies?

Speaking and Listening is part of the National Curriculum and has been statutory for many years. Governments sometimes create national projects to enhance different aspects of existing requirements.

All of our U.K. state educated GC in primary schools have been taught how to give a presentation on a subject of their choice (curriculum related) and have school parliaments which encourage debate.

Unfortunately at senior level, it’s just a case of teaching them to pass exams, debate seems to be actively discouraged, it is seen as fighting the system .

This is for Key Stage 1 and 2
Spoken language
The national curriculum for English reflects the importance of spoken language in pupils’ development across the whole curriculum – cognitively, socially and linguistically. Spoken language underpins the development of reading and writing. The quality and variety of language that pupils hear and speak are vital for developing their vocabulary and grammar and their understanding for reading and writing. Teachers should therefore ensure the continual development of pupils’ confidence and competence in spoken language and listening skills. Pupils should develop a capacity to explain their understanding of books and other reading, and to prepare their ideas before they write. They must be assisted in making their thinking clear to themselves as well as to others, and teachers should ensure that pupils build secure foundations by using discussion to probe and remedy their misconceptions. Pupils should also be taught to understand and use the conventions for discussion and debate.
All pupils should be enabled to participate in and gain knowledge, skills and understanding associated with the artistic practice of drama. Pupils should be able to adopt, create and sustain a range of roles, responding appropriately to others in role. They should have opportunities to improvise, devise and script drama for one another and a range of audiences, as well as to rehearse, refine, share and respond thoughtfully to drama and theatre performances.
Statutory requirements which underpin all aspects of spoken language across the 6 years of primary education form part of the national curriculum. These are reflected and contextualised within the reading and writing domains which follow.

GrannyGravy13

Mamie

Greta

Still not sure about this oracy. Is Keir Starmer saying he wants to make it government policy to teach oracy skills in all state schools. Is the delivery of it at the moment voluntary and therefore varies?

Speaking and Listening is part of the National Curriculum and has been statutory for many years. Governments sometimes create national projects to enhance different aspects of existing requirements.

All of our U.K. state educated GC in primary schools have been taught how to give a presentation on a subject of their choice (curriculum related) and have school parliaments which encourage debate.

Unfortunately at senior level, it’s just a case of teaching them to pass exams, debate seems to be actively discouraged, it is seen as fighting the system .

Anecdotally, regarding my DC, there seemed to be more presentations at Assemblies, school plays etc at primary school than at senior school.
Parents, grandparents, were invited to plays, special assemblies etc which meant all the children gained in confidence but, unless they join a drama group, there seems to be none of this at senior level.

"Unfortunately at senior level, it’s just a case of teaching them to pass exams, debate seems to be actively discouraged, it is seen as fighting the system ".
Your grandchildren must have been very unlucky GrannyGravy13. Mine went to state schools and had plenty of opportunities for debate and developing presentation skills.
I certainly haven't heard anything like you describe from my former colleagues.

I have no knowledge of secondary teaching, and my DGC are younger and still at primary. All I remember is that inhibitions can kick in with puberty etc and even the well educated child can slide into self conscientiousness and reticence/reluctance.

Just thinking, at the secondary schools my DH inspects, pupils sit with teachers (and visitors) at lunchtime, and discuss their learning, their sporting activities, maybe even the weather. This is also done in prep schools and you'd be surprised how confident the kids are telling you about curry recipes their grandma uses or their views on healthy eating. It doesn't all have to be classroom learning.
(Back to the small numbers again a teachers who have the time to do this in a friendly environment).

Joseann I’m primary trained, but my last teaching job was in a very large secondary school.

In my experience the teachers were very focused on their subject (naturally) and they weren’t as used to trying out different things like primary practitioners are.

In the main, they aren’t very child focused.

It’s very easy for children with SEN to ‘slip through the net’; that’s pretty much what my job entailed, stopping them from doing so.

Obviously, this is just my experience

Changes to GCSEs mean that the curriculum is far more content-based than they have been for the last couple of decades. Pupils are given "knowledge organisers" with facts, which they are expected to learn (not discuss).

It's also worth mentioning that it's easier to control the behaviour of a class when they're writing rather than being allowed to discuss. Some pupils find it difficult to concentrate for more than a few minutes even in teacher/pupil discussions.

That's interesting fanny I only work in primary schools, I have no experience of SEN within secondary.

Yes, I totally agree Growstuff
There’s only so much that you can fit in.

Totally agree growstuff