Oracy in state schools

Ilovecheese

Then there was that fool McClaren who invented a pushchair that faced the wrong way.

I'm afraid that someone else then invented mobile phones...

Though, to be fair, the toddlers I see when I'm waiting with the other parents & gparents to pick up my GS from primary school seem to be well talked and listened to.

i think they were named maclaren after the racing car.
to make the product seem more sexy. maybe.

I dare say it is true that some parents use screens instead of talking to their children, but I remember being expected to be quiet when adults were talking - over coffee, on the landline, anywhere. It's not as though we have gone from halcyon days when parents connected with children, listening to them and talking to them properly (as opposed to correcting them, getting impatient, telling them not to interrupt etc) to a state where children are routinely ignored in favour of phones.

Also, I suspect that underpinning this idea is research* into different codes of speech, which suggests that 'Elaborate code', as used by most middle class families is given higher status than 'Restricted code', which is used by both middle and working class families. Restricted code relies on gestures, partial sentences and shared contexts, so we all use it amongst friends and families, and Elaborate code is more objective and context-free (think voice-overs in documentaries, or political speeches), and it is used to discuss more complex ideas. As elaborate code is not always used in working class family life, children can struggle with it when it is used in school (eg in teaching), which can put them at a disadvantage compared to middle class children of similar intelligence and ability. Anything that closes that gap can only be a good thing, I think.

Also, at interviews for university places and many jobs, communication styles are very important just to be given a chance to show what you can do, so if debating skills and rhetorical strategies can be taught from a young age, again, the playing field can be levelled. Exam questions have to be written in Elaborate code, and text books are written in it, so the sooner children become as fluent as possible in Elaborate code the sooner they will be at ease with it, which will open many educational doors.

*Restricted and Elaborate codes are now dated terms (I'm not sure of the more modern and acceptable ones as it's decades since I studied this sort of thing), and further research into dialects and 'street talk' has shown that there are very complex patterns in so-called Restricted code, but the point here is that it is not given the same status as Elaborate code, so it is important that all children are taught to use both codes equally and appropriately in different contexts.

Ilovecheese

Then there was that fool McClaren who invented a pushchair that faced the wrong way.

They were very handy for nipping off to town on the bus with a toddler, though. It didn't seem to stop my DDs from talking.

I was raised in the "Children should be seen and not heard" era. Somehow I learned to speak in public, but actually it is a skill many adults don't possess. We must have all been to events where the guest speaker muttered and "um-ed" and "ah-ed" their way through a boring incomprehensible presentation.
One thing which taught me to speak in public was the teacher training I received, where we were taught to project, speak clearly and engage with our listeners. Perhaps oracy should be introduced into teacher training again.

Doodledog, what interesting info, we normally only equate privilege with material wealth and the benefits it brings but there is so much more to consider. I'v read that learning a second language is easier when very young, if that is so does it mean that the really young years for fluency are crucial and if little ones aren't exposed to 'enough' they will struggle to reach their potential in later years?

We used to have quite lively discussions at home when I was very young (much about politics but that could have been more listening to Dad than discussing 😁) but certain subjects were off limits or just avoided.

i don't remember much discussions when i was a child at home.
almost never in fact.
mostly was instructions, from parents, or requests, from non-parents.
this didn't strike me as unusual or lacking at the time.
it was how most families operated around us.

keepcalmandcavachon

Doodledog, what interesting info, we normally only equate privilege with material wealth and the benefits it brings but there is so much more to consider. I'v read that learning a second language is easier when very young, if that is so does it mean that the really young years for fluency are crucial and if little ones aren't exposed to 'enough' they will struggle to reach their potential in later years?

From what I remember, no. Children can learn to understand, talk and think in Elaborate code relatively easily, but it can be difficult for them to switch between that and Restricted code as effortlessly as those who use it at home can do. There are also cultural pressures which can work against it. A child whose friends and family all use similar speech patterns might be laughed at if he or she starts to speak differently, and might be accused of 'getting above him/herself'.

There is a choice between enhancing the status of Restricted codes (which has happened up to a point with mass media representations of working class speech in TV drama etc) and extending the reach of Elaborate code, which can also happen in the media, eg the examples of documentaries upthread.

It's tricky though. There are those who would argue that it is wrong to superimpose one way of speaking over another, and as I say, there is no inherent superiority of one pattern over another. All the same, there is still a lot of snobbery against working class speech patterns (particularly in the UK), and however well-meaning, it's difficult to teach complex concepts without using complex language, so in the end it probably makes sense to concentrate on ensuring that all children are exposed to Elaborate code early, so that they are accustomed to switching when they need to at secondary school, and are not fish out of water later on.

Speaking and listening (S&L) has been part of the primary curriculum for years.
In good schools, children have an opportunity to perform regularly throughout their time at school whether through presentations to their class, poetry recitals in front of the school or taking part in performances, with pupils and parents as their audience.
Two problems affect this.
1. The increasing number of children arriving at school unable to string a coherent sentence together.
2. Not all parents support the speaking activities, complaining that their children are traumatised by being expected to talk in front of others.
What about S &L in secondary schools?

Not sure how this oracy initiative will be delivered and what it will entail. I remember the promise of "Languages for All" in the 1990's. As far as I understand language teaching in our schools is not achieving the intended results. Aspirations are all very well but...

Greta Let’s not forget Rishi Sunak’s maths to 18 programme. Your comment applies here as well. Politicians excel at initiatives am thinking…
Www3 earlier on attachment theory of course Bowlby … but too tired to expand!

Greta

Not sure how this oracy initiative will be delivered and what it will entail. I remember the promise of "Languages for All" in the 1990's. As far as I understand language teaching in our schools is not achieving the intended results. Aspirations are all very well but...

It’s very easy to embed it within all lesson planning.

I know that I have done this, particularly along side learning new vocabulary.

There are also plenty of opportunities for discrete S&L time throughout the school day.

S&L isn’t some sort of new initiative; all good teaching and learning should feature it.

Content issuing from the mouth and larynx depends on what happens in the brain. Nonsense in the brain means nonsense speech whether it's well enunciated and fluent or not as we saw in the Brexit debate and as Mr Rees-Mogg and other MPs frequently demonstrate.

True, but in our class-based society there are still many people who are impressed by the waffling gibberish pronounced by the likes of Johnson because he does it in a public school accent and sprays a few Latin and Greek phrases around.

Good points, Fanny Cornforth. I got the impression though that oracy was a new initiative. If it is easy to incorporate into the school day and it is already happening why present it as a new component?

Ah, so now we're down to suggesting that it is maybe the delivery of what is being said that counts. I do agree that confidence and a certain poise go along way, but not arrogance.
Maybe it's elocution teachers that Starmer needs to be thinking about.

No, I don’t think that’s the idea. I think the aim is to give more people the confidence that goes with being able to express oneself and not be cowed by the swagger of others.

Joseann

Ah, so now we're down to suggesting that it is maybe the delivery of what is being said that counts. I do agree that confidence and a certain poise go along way, but not arrogance.
Maybe it's elocution teachers that Starmer needs to be thinking about.

Oh no! No, no, no!
You can’t tell everyone that they are speaking with the wrong accent!
This is exactly the Class Ceiling that Starmer is referring to.
I think that it’s enormously refreshing that we had a Shadow Deputy who speaks incredibly eloquently in her own regional accent

I don't think accent matters at all. (I am London East End!) But I do think that good projection and expression (in the form of confident eye contact).
A confident, self assured child is key to success.

I think the big problem these days is that a lot of communication is done via messaging rather than speaking, (phone call ~).Young child are arriving at school unable to hold a simple conversation and with little working vocabulary.
Regional accents are more prevalent now , which I think is an improvement on estuary speech for all.

Joseann

I don't think accent matters at all. (I am London East End!) But I do think that good projection and expression (in the form of confident eye contact).
A confident, self assured child is key to success.

Drama graduates can teach that.
And teachers should be good at all that too! 😉

Agreed, Fanny. It is the idea that elocution matters that is being fought against, I think. Angela Rayner suffers so much snobbery from those who think it matters how she sounds her vowels and seeing that must make it even harder for children with similar accents to imagine themselves as MPs or in other positions of influence.

Teaching them poise, and how to stay calm when people try to put them down or trip them up will help them to hold their own. Having the ability to look at an argument for what it is, strip back the flowery phraseology and Dickensian sentence structure, and respond to the meaning of what has been said is very useful.

In a class-based society it takes confidence though, as too many people are hung up on the signifiers of privilege (see, a few phrases like that can sound impressive, too ).

Starmer had an ordinary background and became a barrister - he will have had to learn how to switch from one way of speaking to another, and I think he wants to give everyone the opportunity to learn to do the same.

Drama teachers are excellent, but once again this is a subject that is underated in schools.
Maybe more specialist teachers should be used at primary level to teach these skills, like languages and Art - not just the class teacher. In that way, young children learn to compartmentalise and adapt to what is required in different situations and how to deliver it accordingly. If it doesn't come naturally to them, and why should it, then it needs to be rehearsed.
Your mention of switching is interesting Doodledog. My DH is at equally at home talking to royalty one moment (public school voice) and bin men the next (me old china!).

I speak to everyone in my own obvious Black Country accent. I would not change how I speak to anyone, royalty or not.

When I was doing my post graduate degree at York, surrounded by very ‘well spoken’ Oxbridge graduates my professors treated me similarly to a performing monkey.

It was like the 60s had never happened.

And yes, I probably do have something of a chip on my shoulder about it!