Oracy in state schools

Whitewavemark2

Oh I am surprised, perhaps you will give me a list of them when you are back🙂

John Bowlby and the 1950s spring to mind....
Have always thought that was more about keeping women in their place.

I think Starmer might have missed the point a bit, that it is small class sizes that gives children the opportunity to express themselves confidentally and as individuals. With the best will and teaching in the world, once you get over 20 or so pupils, surely there just isn't the time and conditions to do this individually and effectively?
The result is there will be many who struggle or who miss the opportunity.

I'm not sure we need a ton more graduate teachers with a prescribed agends at pre school level. More teaching assistants might be a better bet.

Joseann

I think Starmer might have missed the point a bit, that it is small class sizes that gives children the opportunity to express themselves confidentally and as individuals. With the best will and teaching in the world, once you get over 20 or so pupils, surely there just isn't the time and conditions to do this individually and effectively?
The result is there will be many who struggle or who miss the opportunity.

I would say that you can, with effective planning and differentiation. A well-briefed TA is very helpful as well.
(Have observed it many times).
My children and grandchildren were all in state schools with large classes.
Going back even further my independent school had small classes and some of the teaching was utterly dire.

How many parents do we see with a child in tow or in a pushchair while they, instead of talking to them, concentrate on their phones? I know all parents are not like this but IMHO a significant number are. Also my experience of nursery staff, classroom assistants and teachers suggests that some of them are poor communicators too. Hopefully having a focus on this area will encourage those in positions of influence to consider how their young charges might try to imitate them.

Oracy ? Never heard that term before. You learn something every day.

I agree Mamie, the teacher is the method, but for me it is having the time in the curriculum to give every pupil the opportunity to express themselves that is so valuable. I have one lot of DG in a London school, class size 35, and one lot in a Devon village school, class size 20 children. Both state schools. I'm not saying the education is better or worse in either, but the amount of individual time and attention given to listening and nuturing the child certainly is.

Speaking and Listening is well embedded in the curriculum and has been for many years. It is a major part of the Early Years curriculum. The Literacy Strategy has also been embedded for many years too. I’m unclear as to what difference Starmer’s suggestion will make. If he ensures class sizes are smaller as Joseann suggests, the that will make a difference in all areas of learning, not just Speaking and Listening. We cannot pluck one area of learning out of the curriculum and think that a nationwide focus on that will make a huge difference to outcomes. The focus and priority must be smaller class sizes, but in order to achieve that we need to train more teachers.

Well it might help if he actually informed himself about what is still being taught in schools. I thought maybe I was out of date, but I think the National Curriculum still applies and speaking is a component part of that.
Oracy may be a posh word for it but it doesn't mean it will be taught differently.
His promise of more teachers is welcome but he should also be looking at retainment. The numbers of people leaving teaching after 3 or 5 years is very concerning.

maddyone

Speaking and Listening is well embedded in the curriculum and has been for many years. It is a major part of the Early Years curriculum. The Literacy Strategy has also been embedded for many years too. I’m unclear as to what difference Starmer’s suggestion will make. If he ensures class sizes are smaller as Joseann suggests, the that will make a difference in all areas of learning, not just Speaking and Listening. We cannot pluck one area of learning out of the curriculum and think that a nationwide focus on that will make a huge difference to outcomes. The focus and priority must be smaller class sizes, but in order to achieve that we need to train more teachers.

I agree maddyone. None of this is possible without a major initiative on recruitment and retention.

There is no doubt that Labour recognise class size as an issue, and one of the first steps is retention, which is why they are offering £2400 to newly trained teachers. However until teachers are properly remunerated this will be an ongoing issue.

It is a problem at all levels. Recruitment of senior leaders has been difficult for years.

nanna8

Oracy ? Never heard that term before. You learn something every day.

nanna8
Oracy - the ability to express oneself fluently and grammatically in speech.

However fluent and articulate a child's speech might be during primary years, it is something that tends to disappear during teenage years when grunting becomes the normal method of communication.

Just listening to Keir Starmer and there is some good, informed detail in there. He is currently taking some pretty challenging questions (though not sure why the Daily Mail journalist is more interested in ULEZ than education 🤔).

Thumbs up from me.

Yes it does Callistemon and when normal speech resumes, the art of fluent grammatical speech can take a nose dive too, but with a persistent parent it returns; eventually.

Back in the 70s, RAF base, an excellent nursery school, helped my DC on the way. Same with my DG, all able to articulate very well, debate the issues, and listen well. My little GGS aged three, is also able to switch from Dutch and English, and can argue the toss very easily, some of this comes down surely to parents, listening and speaking to the child. Must ask my learner teacher DG about this. Unfortunately, some teachers seem to be unable to let school students debate the issues that are relevant today, and want to push the establishment view no matter what. Not sure if Labour bringing anything new to the table regarding this.

The English-Speaking Union (ESU) and ESU Scotland are charities who champion oracy in schools, and have a number of modules available for pupils of all ages. Go to the ESU website and look up "Oracy in Action" to see what's involved for primary schools.

Bodach

The English-Speaking Union (ESU) and ESU Scotland are charities who champion oracy in schools, and have a number of modules available for pupils of all ages. Go to the ESU website and look up "Oracy in Action" to see what's involved for primary schools.

It should start at birth. And this is crucial - children who are constantly engaged in conversation by their parent/carer at every opportunity rather than those children who are talked at with instructions etc at a very low level are at every stage of their lives advantaged. Children who are constantly engaged have a much wider vocabulary, are more confident and less angry because they can articulate their needs and emotions.

So this is a vital and essential life skill that have a massive impact on children’s lives. It starts at nursery/Sure Start.

It starts in the home, surely. Not all children go to nursery.

One of my Daughters is a Speech-Language Pathologist, working mainly with young children. Whilst I agree that the Mother/Child bond should be vitally important in providing a firm foundation for communication skills, my Daughter's work experience shows that sadly, this relationship cannot always be relied upon, and that an increasing number of very young children are arriving at first school with very poor, and in extreme cases, almost non-existent oral skills. Lockdown has certainly had an adverse impact here, but that isn't the whole story, as a recent worrying survey has indicated that almost one third of 4 and 5 year olds were lacking in some basic, early communication skills. So yes, in a perfect world, the Mother/Child relationship would efficiently provide those essential early-learning building blocks, and my Daughter would be out of a job. However, in the real world in which we live, I think she'll continue to be gainfully employed.

Mamie

Well yes, but it is nothing new. I remember oracy projects in the 80s and speaking, listening, reading and writing have always been at the heart of the National Curriculum and the Literacy Strategy. The problem is that reading and writing are the things that the press, politicians and the nostalgia brigade bang on about, so oracy has not always had the focus it needed.
I am delighted that Starmer has focussed on it and I hope it can bring about real improvement.

Our dept participated in The Oracy Project for years, even though we were nothing to do with English dept or the arts subjects. Kids & staff enjoyed groups of pupils giving presentations in class, and some in front of their half year group (100 pupils). Unfortunately the speed with which govts dump curriculum changes and new initiatives onto schools, and the straitjacket that they want to put teachers into with regards to what they teach, excellent ideas will fall by the wayside.

For literally decades, someone in various English depts I've worked with have prepped assorted pupils, whittling them down to the best 3 public speakers, and entering them for area, county and even national competitions.

Lastly assemblies etc mean that most pupils in primary have stood up and read in front of staff, pupils and parents. I remember DGD doing that in Y2.

nightowl

It starts in the home, surely. Not all children go to nursery.

Yes it has to. However how do you reach those children whose parents have poor communication schools? What this does is recognise that some children completely lack these skills. These are the children that we need to help, but all children will benefit from learning more about good communication in different scenarios, like job interviews, personal communication and the ability to think critically. There is research to show that those who lack good communication skills tend to react emotionally to situations and are easy to radicalise.

Then there was that fool McClaren who invented a pushchair that faced the wrong way.

Ilovecheese

Then there was that fool McClaren who invented a pushchair that faced the wrong way.

True - but it did fold up very easily to take onto buses! A lifesaver in London in the 70s.