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Tavistock Gender Clinic to close - it failed vulnerable under-18s

(210 Posts)
FarNorth Thu 28-Jul-22 16:35:00

archive.ph/7GRkw

This is an article from The Times.

Dickens Fri 29-Jul-22 10:21:23

Doodledog

People get 'energised' because they feel that the trans agenda is dangerous on a number of levels...

What is bothersome about this (to me) is that there must be goodness knows how many transgender individuals who simply want to live their best lives in a way that feels comfortable to them, nothing more.

I have a trans gender woman friend - who has no "agenda" and is only absorbed by the interests we both share.

It is the TG 'activists' - those that disrupt women's groups and activities, and are often verbally aggressive and threatening, who are the problem. They might be a minority, but the sensational media reporting on them just stirs up antagonism towards the whole TG community, making life very difficult for those, like my friend, who just want to get on with their lives like everyone else.

Chewbacca Fri 29-Jul-22 10:25:31

I think a few things (as have been discussed to death on other threads) but the one being discussed here is the obsession of those with maintaining gender norms.

Well thank God that Hilary Cass can see the same problem as the obsession that posters on here have. Does it not concern you, even just a little bit, that hundreds of children have been psychologically, physically and medically experimented on at the gids clinic @ Tavistock? That they, and the whistleblowers, are saying that they weren't trans; they were having other issues such as autism, homosexuality, bisexual, mental health issues, but we're railroaded down the trans tunnel regardless. Don't you have any empathy for them and feel some sense of relief that they'll now stand a chance of being listened to properly?

DiamondLily Fri 29-Jul-22 10:30:05

This may be a real problem, in a few years, if one or more of these young people wish to become parents.

Their bodies may have been permanently damaged in all sorts of ways.?

Doodledog Fri 29-Jul-22 10:45:48

It is the TG 'activists' - those that disrupt women's groups and activities, and are often verbally aggressive and threatening, who are the problem. They might be a minority, but the sensational media reporting on them just stirs up antagonism towards the whole TG community, making life very difficult for those, like my friend, who just want to get on with their lives like everyone else.

I couldn't agree more, Dickens and have said this over and over again for years now, but still we get the same drivel about not caring about other issues, about being obsessed and so on, and posts can feel like a game of I went To Market at times. People are waiting with 'Gotcha's if you accidentally miss out a point, but are also poised to pounce if you say something you've said before because it's 'boring'. It's tiring.

That is not directed at you, btw - it's just that it seems to be happening more and more that you answer a question as it is put, and then get grief for not bringing in something else. Things do seem to be more tetchy than usual on GN just now though - I think I need to post elsewhere for a while.

Galaxy Fri 29-Jul-22 10:46:44

They were failed in every aspect of their care that's why its being closed.

Glorianny Fri 29-Jul-22 10:48:16

Chewbacca

^I think a few things (as have been discussed to death on other threads) but the one being discussed here is the obsession of those with maintaining gender norms.^

Well thank God that Hilary Cass can see the same problem as the obsession that posters on here have. Does it not concern you, even just a little bit, that hundreds of children have been psychologically, physically and medically experimented on at the gids clinic @ Tavistock? That they, and the whistleblowers, are saying that they weren't trans; they were having other issues such as autism, homosexuality, bisexual, mental health issues, but we're railroaded down the trans tunnel regardless. Don't you have any empathy for them and feel some sense of relief that they'll now stand a chance of being listened to properly?

I don't think children who are waiting 4 years for a first appointment can in anyway said to be "railroaded". They are in fact being sadly failed by the NHS who (whatever their issues) are not providing a timely response to the problem.
Of course if you have the money there are a number of private gender clinics who can supply treatment,.
And of course there are always drugs available on the internet for any under 18 to access.
People (and that includes children )who are desperate will do all sorts of risky things

Galaxy Fri 29-Jul-22 10:51:52

Yes I think some of the medical professionals who were involved in private companies are currently being investigated.

growstuff Fri 29-Jul-22 10:54:42

I agree with you Dickens. Gender isn't quite so straightforward as some people seem to think. I've taught young people with gender dysphoria and life is tough for them. They don't feel they belong, they're confused and they get bullied. It exists. As I mentioned before, I know two boys who successfully transitioned and are now leading happy lives.

Gender isn't just about one chromosome of our DNA. It's about hormones and possibly brain structure too. Humans don't all produce the same amount of hormones in the same combination. There are literally thousands of combinations along a continuum. If one identical twin has gender dysphoria, it's more likely that the other twin has it too, so it's probable that there is some kind of genetic element. It would appear that the role of the Y chromosome is evolving and diminishing too, so who's to say that those with gender dysphoria aren't ahead of their time from an evolutionary perspective?

It appears that the Tavistock Clinic was failing its clients through inadequate counselling. I hope it's not used as an excuse in an attack on gender transitioning.

I don't understand why it's become such a hot political issue for some people.

growstuff Fri 29-Jul-22 10:55:18

Galaxy

They were failed in every aspect of their care that's why its being closed.

All of them?

Glorianny Fri 29-Jul-22 10:58:20

It concerns me that there are 11,000+ children waiting for gender dysphoria appointments, who are unlikely to be seen before 2026

Rosie51 Fri 29-Jul-22 10:59:42

^In other words children are waiting 4 years for a first appointment. During that time they may access drugs on the net or share drugs with a friend
You are effectively celebrating children being failed in every aspect of their care.
If you want to read the figures gic.nhs.uk/appointments/waiting-times/^

Nobody is celebrating the lack of care to these children, and maybe with more centres opening around the country, waiting times will reduce. Those of us with children or grandchildren that have needed CAMHS support are well aware of the shortcomings in child services. Damaging care is not preferable to no care.

We want them to have good appropriate care that looks at their whole selves and determines the best treatment for them. For some this will be transition, but at the moment they're virtually all being put on the conveyor belt of puberty blockers followed by cross sex hormones and possibly surgery. That Dr Cass has released this before her report is published shows the huge concerns around the Tavistock, and the manner in which it has operated.
Elaine Miller, a pelvic physiotherapist, talks about the effects of menopause on a woman's body. Women who go through menopause before the average age of 50 are encouraged to take hormone replacement therapy to offset the health complications that can arise from reducing oestrogen in the body. Putting girls on puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones induces menopause 30 or more years early. Where are the studies, data sets, records that are monitoring these individuals?

Galaxy Fri 29-Jul-22 11:01:36

Yes all of them growstuff no proper long term data collection/analysis so no way to measure.

Galaxy Fri 29-Jul-22 11:04:26

It isnt about just one clinic it's also about puberty blockers.

GagaJo Fri 29-Jul-22 11:08:41

Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak pledged to consider restricting the use of puberty blockers.

What a ringing endorsement. The woman who said her very good school failed children, despite being under a Tory government. And a man in charge of the national purse, while his non-tax paying wife was milking British tax payers.

GagaJo Fri 29-Jul-22 11:09:31

Two people that don't have a clue, even about their own area of 'expertise' now wade in. Bodes well!

GagaJo Fri 29-Jul-22 11:13:27

Glorianny

As you celebrate over this closure consider the present position for those children needing gender advice and treatment

Recent waiting list figures:
Number of people on our waiting list: 11,293
Number of referrals received in the month: 329
Number of first appointments offered in the month: 56
Total appointments offered in the month: 917
We are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018
The data above is for April 2022.

In other words children are waiting 4 years for a first appointment. During that time they may access drugs on the net or share drugs with a friend
You are effectively celebrating children being failed in every aspect of their care.
If you want to read the figures gic.nhs.uk/appointments/waiting-times/

They don't care, Glorianny. Because the issue isn't about care for children at all. It about preventing care for children.

Those on here saying they do, don't care that a lack of qualified medical intervention will cause many of those children to seek out dangerous, unregulated intervention. Just like banning abortion doesn't stop abortion. It just stops safe abortion.

growstuff Fri 29-Jul-22 11:14:50

Galaxy

Yes all of them growstuff no proper long term data collection/analysis so no way to measure.

In that case, there are going to be some really disturbed people growing up. I guess those who can afford it can go abroad to have treatment.

growstuff Fri 29-Jul-22 11:16:30

Of course it's not about care for children Gagajo, but it always sounds good to pretend to care about children and animals.

Galaxy Fri 29-Jul-22 11:23:53

No they wont be able to grow abroad, many European countries are backing away from this as quickly as they can.
As I have said 30 years in childrens services but carry on, I just remember the lurkers.

Rosie51 Fri 29-Jul-22 11:29:37

They don't care, Glorianny. Because the issue isn't about care for children at all. It about preventing care for children.

Those on here saying they do, don't care that a lack of qualified medical intervention will cause many of those children to seek out dangerous, unregulated intervention. Just like banning abortion doesn't stop abortion. It just stops safe abortion.

It's the lack of decent medical care that has concerned people. The honing in on one aspect of a mental distress and not looking to see if there are other factors that are influencing it. Do you not care that children's bodies are being permanently altered and potentially damaged with life limiting conditions in the future? Osteoporosis is no joke, and the earlier the menopause the greater the risk of developing it. Put a girl into menopause at 20 and that's exactly what you're risking. Dr Cass has said there needs to holistic, clinically led treatment in the future. Obviously not what has been offered by the Tavistock, which is why she has ordered its closure. Unless of course you're asserting that she doesn't care about children's health and just wants to prevent care?

Chewbacca Fri 29-Jul-22 11:34:24

The Times today:

The medical fates of so many vulnerable young people should never have been under the control of one single, controversial clinic. The monopoly of the Gender Identity Development Service, GIDS, over the treatment of children and young people who identify as transgender, has now been broken, thanks to these latest recommendations by Dr Hilary Cass. The full scale of the damage it has done may never be known.

For years, whistleblowers have been trying to raise the alarm that something had gone badly wrong at the north London clinic. Somehow, the word transgender had triggered a satellite service that operated beyond many of the standard NHS safety protocols.

That special treatment, as Dr Cass makes clear, led to those young people receiving worse care.

The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust’s service for children and young people grew out of a small clinic that was founded in 1994. It became an NHS-commissioned service in 2009 and in 2011, the new GIDS director, Dr Polly Carmichael, began its first “trial” of puberty blockers, a type of hormone therapy that literally halts the development of children as a way of treating their gender distress. Before any research was concluded on the long-term impact of these drugs on a child’s physical and psychological development, the clinic made the drugs more widely available in response to apparent increasing demand.

No matter that a significant proportion of these new referrals were on the autism spectrum, or already suffering eating disorders, or were in care, or had complex histories of trauma or abuse — the GIDS leadership pursued an “affirmative” approach which critics said effectively treated a child’s declaration that they were born in the wrong body as sacrosanct and treated all their other complex problems through the prism of gender.

Clinicians who questioned this approach were accused of being transphobic. Whistleblowers like Dr David Bell, a former staff governor; Keira Bell, who regretted her transition; Marcus Evans, a consultant, and his wife, Sue Evans, a mental health nurse, and Sonia Appleby, a child safeguarding expert, all tried to raise the alarm in a hostile environment. There began an exodus of experienced staff who left the service amid concerns that the clinic was sending young people down an experimental medical pathway towards irreversible cross-sex hormones — without their informed consent and without adequate exploration of other issues that might have been at the root of their unhappiness. Some of these children, the whistleblowers suspected, were in the process of realising they were gay, but they claimed the subject of sexuality was not adequately explored.

By moving the care of vulnerable, trans-identifying youngsters back into the NHS fold of mainstream children’s hospitals and shifting the focus away from interest groups obsessed with queer theory and back on to boring old things like evidence-based medicine and clinical research, Dr Cass has done these children and their families a great service.

Critically, she has also called for the appropriate services to monitor the long-term outcome of these patients. Arguably the most shocking part of GIDS was that, despite its supposedly pioneering approach in this brave new world of gender identity, it failed to keep accurate records of what happened to all these children it treated once they grew up.

The full impact of the GIDS experiment on their lives is yet to be known.

go.skimresources.com/?id=470X756&isjs=1&jv=15.2.4-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mumsnet.com%2Ftalk%2Fwomens_rights%2F4599544-tavistock-clinic-to-close-as-not-safe-for-children%3Fpage%3D15&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Farticle%2Fa9c913c4-0e94-11ed-93cf-b011fa7fe86b%3FshareToken%3Df6d1e5720299c7603ee154668cd2d29d&xs=1&xtz=-60&xuuid=71ef2fb7ee1884b0e54360a759fe2791&xjsf=other_click__contextmenu%20%5B-1%5D

GagaJo Fri 29-Jul-22 11:34:25

We are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018.

In other words children are waiting 4 years for a first appointment.

Four years to first appointment. No fast tracking.

So if you presented at 16, you wouldn't be seen until you were 20. You're calling a 20 year old a girl. I was married with a baby by 20. 20 is a woman. You're advocating controlling what that woman can do with her body. Exactly as the abortion ban in the US is doing.

GagaJo Fri 29-Jul-22 11:37:47

Should we prevent 20 year olds from going to war? Getting married? Having babies? Tattoos? Piercings?

Rosie51 Fri 29-Jul-22 11:42:45

Well for a start a 20 year old won't be having any need of puberty blockers will she? Nobody is saying a 20 year old shouldn't have absolute body autonomy are they? We're talking about prepubescent children having their natural puberty blocked. Puberty blockers are only necessary for children and adolescents. Who have the Tavistock been prescribing them to?

Chewbacca Fri 29-Jul-22 11:45:27

In that case, there are going to be some really disturbed people growing up.

Yes there will, thanks to Tavistock gids and their rush to put children on puberty blockers. All those children put on life altering drugs, at a time when they didn't know what they were embarking on and trusted the Tavistock to care for them now and into their future. They were failed when the doctors, social workers, ancillary staff who raised their concerns that it was an unsafe environment for children, were ignored and over ridden.