the law as it stands on sex - part 3

I certainly wouldn't even suggest under wear to flatten their body or hormonal treatment. Support their choice of gender neutral clothes which there's an ample supply of, perhaps use their preferred name at home but not expect their school to do the same.

It would be a huge decision, possibly the biggest one of their lives so for me it would be important to stress how long the process will take, with or without surgical intervention when they're older.

They need to take time to ensure this is what they really want and those who love them will need time to understand and come to terms with their decision. It isn't an instant 'fix', it cannot happen 'over night' and IMO it's very important that that is stressed.

Great post Doodledog

There does have to be a reason for the increasing numbers of children and adolescents affected. I don't buy the 'there were always this number but now they're free to express themselves' line. If that were true where are all the middle age and older women who always knew they were boys and men? I wonder if that's why some TRAs try to insist that butch lesbians should 'be true' to themselves and transition .............to increase the numbers?

I knew a little girl who had older brothers and around the age of 2 to 3 said "when I'm a boy" ....she thought that children all became boys as they grew older. She'd have been transitioned in a heartbeat by some these days, but is a happily married mum of two as an adult.

This is interesting.
It's good to know that a lot of teachers are uneasy about things and don't want to pander to this nonsense but can't speak out for fear of being fired.
This is why we oldies have more power than we realise.
They can't threaten to fire us if we say what we think.

"I’m a teacher in a secondary school. I’d like to assure you all that the vast majority of us can see what is happening. My hope is that, as it becomes a ‘Year 7’ thing, it will become uncool and the older children will distance themselves from it, and find new ways of expressing themselves."

The above quote was from a teacher on MN
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4536483-nearly-one-in-every-15-pupils-at-a-leading-secondary-school-identify-as-trans-or-non-binary-with-majority-declaring-their-gender-change-after-lockdown-last-summer

Thanks doodle, your post puts it well
I don’t wish to minimise the distress of the adolescents at the school referred to. I recall outbreaks of self harm in certain years and in residential care placements. Invariably they followed a pattern triggered by one or two individuals. Fortunately they didn’t persist

I'm not disputing the report of the teacher, but we really need more verifiable and objective studies, to see how widespread the issue is, and whether those numbers hold true across the country.

It's interesting that lockdown seems to have triggered some of this in the school in the article. The more of that sort of link (whether correlation or causation) we have, the more the possible reasons can be investigated.

I've hear children say 'when I'm a boy/girl too, Rosie. In fact one of my nephews used to say 'when I was a monkey' after learning about evolution at school .

We need to listen and take what children say seriously but that’s different than ‘believing’ everything a child or young people says.

Yes Iam, we need to listen and talk to them about what's troubling them and also remember that they are children and what they 'believe' today may not be what they 'believe' later on.

If the Gods/Tavi unit had started from the usual holistic assessment, rather than the ‘I’m a boy really’ starting point, the body of knowledge would be stronger.

snowberryZ

This is interesting.
It's good to know that a lot of teachers are uneasy about things and don't want to pander to this nonsense but can't speak out for fear of being fired.
This is why we oldies have more power than we realise.
They can't threaten to fire us if we say what we think.

"I’m a teacher in a secondary school. I’d like to assure you all that the vast majority of us can see what is happening. My hope is that, as it becomes a ‘Year 7’ thing, it will become uncool and the older children will distance themselves from it, and find new ways of expressing themselves."

I really hope it is true that it will be a year 7 thing.
The problem facing some girls starting KS3, is not just coping with puberty, but bullying by those girls who either seized the opportunity to start or have been sucked into the power of being trans.
Bullying-e.g. ensuring punishment by reporting girls for using the wrong pronouns in a school where all pupils wear school uniform-skirts or trousers. Or refusing to be sucked into the gang or for not having sufficient ‘victim points’.

In the interests of being inclusive this is allowed to go on.

Why did these girls not apply to a mixed or a boys’ school both of which are available at no great distance?

Iam64

If the Gods/Tavi unit had started from the usual holistic assessment, rather than the ‘I’m a boy really’ starting point, the body of knowledge would be stronger.

Yes, I think this is crucial. It's not that I think we shouldn't listen to children - recent abuse scandals have shown how important it is that we take them seriously - but that we dig deeper into what they mean, rather than what they say (specially the little ones).

'It's just a feeling' is simply not good enough. Surely there are people able to explore that further, to determine what it is that they are feeling, as well as what they have in common, and the significance of those things?

I think we also need to get rid of the 'report' culture that has people running to authority to silence anyone who expresses an opinion that conflicts with the self-appointed arbiters of what is 'allowed' to be said. Whether that is children who use it as a way to bully others, teachers and academics buying into the idea that it is 'kind' to pander to children, or Stonewall and its supporters persecuting people by getting them sacked or otherwise silenced for speaking out, it needs to be stopped. A lot of is is bullying, pure and simple, and in places like universities, where it is widespread, there should be free speech about anything and everything that can be defended.

It does look as though the No Debate crowd are losing credibility now, which is great news. As with any authoritarian group, though, I suspect they won't go quietly, so it's important that anyone with a more liberal outlook doesn't take their eyes off the ball.

A poem, seen on Twitter.

twitter.com/i/status/1518184843447840768

Neat-but appalling FarNorth.

DD
Listening to children has always been important, but doing something about what they say doesn’t always mean giving them what they ask for straight away. If a child said they wanted matches? A knife?

I think we also need to get rid of the 'report' culture that has people running to authority to silence anyone who expresses an opinion that conflicts with the self-appointed arbiters of what is 'allowed' to be said.
Absolutely!

*DD
Listening to children has always been important, but doing something about what they say doesn’t always mean giving them what they ask for straight away. If a child said they wanted matches? A knife?*
Oh, I'm not at all saying that we should give children what they ask for. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't take everything they say at face value. Listen to them, yes. But they don't necessarily understand their own feelings, and can't always articulate them if they do - I would want much more than 'I just know that I'm a girl' before I'd even think about guiding a child towards transitioning.

As Chewbacca's post pointed out, assuming that a girl who likes climbing trees should have been a boy, or a boy who enjoys playing with dolls should be a girl is the ultimate in gender stereotyping, and is really dangerous, particularly for women.

I also think that 'it's a feeling' is nothing like detailed enough to mean anything, particularly when said by a child - there are too many possibilities of things the phrase could be about. I'm not a psychologist though.

This makes interesting, and rather disturbing reading, about Jamie Wallis MP, who has recently discovered his true self. Make sure you read right to the end.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-jamie-wallis-story-gets-darker

Children who have no gender.
The adults are the ones who are confusing sex with gender.

www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vice.com/en/article/j5q3kb/watch-our-new-documentary-raised-without-gender&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiXjazs0q33AhWbgVwKHdtVB7MQFnoECAsQAg&usg=AOvVaw26a931b_ep8qZQXX5sEazE

Children who have no gender.

The grandmother in the film admitted, once away from "mapa", that he/she/them/they, far from allowing the child to be gender neutral as they claimed, kept foisting dresses and feminine things upon Nika who knew they were really male, preferred to play with cars and wanted to be a builder when they grew up. Nika was clearly uncomfortable discussing whether he was a boy or a girl in front of "mapa", but confirmed that he was a boy when he was away from them. Is it any wonder that Swedish boys are failing in school and have twice the rate of suicides? Wtf are they doing; messing up children's heads with this mind f**kery? Are the TRAs and their allies really ok with f**king up their children's mental health on the alter of living their authentic selves? I hope every single one of the kids that gets embroiled in this manufactured dystopian nightmare, sues the arses off their parents when they get to adulthood and realise that they were guinea pigs in a social experiment.

I guess children are always part of a social experiment. I don't like the one where they are expected to fit into rigid gender roles.

Having all sorts of toys & clothes available to them is great, imo, but all this stuff about choosing a gender is ridiculous.
They should know if they are girl or boy and that they can have whatever interests & preferences they want.

Chewbacca
Active in the BackgroundWrites Spoke in the Wheels of the Tran… ·Apr 5
“Jamie Wallis MP, you are charged with a number of serious offences.

How do you wish to plead, guilty or not guilty?”

“I’m Trans your honour

What’s different about this, from claiming to be a TW on sentencing and demanding to be in a female prison?
How did he pass the vetting process for any party?

Re the children who have no gender, it truly smacks of Münchausens by proxy, where a parent or in this case a whole school forces things on a child to gain attention.

Are the TRAs and their allies really ok with f**king up their children's mental health on the alter of living their authentic selves? I hope every single one of the kids that gets embroiled in this manufactured dystopian nightmare, sues the arses off their parents when they get to adulthood and realise that they were guinea pigs in a social experiment

And have to fight being called transphobic too?

Chewbacca

^Children who have no gender.^

The grandmother in the film admitted, once away from "mapa", that he/she/them/they, far from allowing the child to be gender neutral as they claimed, kept foisting dresses and feminine things upon Nika who knew they were really male, preferred to play with cars and wanted to be a builder when they grew up. Nika was clearly uncomfortable discussing whether he was a boy or a girl in front of "mapa", but confirmed that he was a boy when he was away from them. Is it any wonder that Swedish boys are failing in school and have twice the rate of suicides? Wtf are they doing; messing up children's heads with this mind f**kery? Are the TRAs and their allies really ok with f**king up their children's mental health on the alter of living their authentic selves? I hope every single one of the kids that gets embroiled in this manufactured dystopian nightmare, sues the arses off their parents when they get to adulthood and realise that they were guinea pigs in a social experiment.

I'm not a psychologist, so bear with me, but I'd like to see a proper definition of an 'authentic self'.

It's unlikely to be anything fundamental, as clothing, toys and leisure activities (I can't think of much else that so-called 'gender' would influence in the life of a small child) aren't going to the root of what it is to be human (if that is what is mean by 'the self').

If children are allowed to play with what they like, and are dressed in trackies and t-shirts/jumpers they can still be a boy or a girl, based on sex, without making them feel 'inauthentic'. It's not until later (I think - I'm not an anatomist either :grin: ) that their bodies develop in ways that differentiate male children from female ones to the point that it would be unfair to the girls to make them compete against the boys.

What would not being an 'authentic self' mean in that context? IME it is the norm, not the exception, for children to be taught this way at school and in most homes - mine certainly were, and it is 25 years since the youngest started school. It wasn't like 'our day', when there were very clear demarkations between the lives of boys and girls, with different subjects taught, different playground games, different registers and so on. At home, children are not like Just William and Violet Elizabeth either. The days are long gone when girls wore frilly dresses they couldn't get dirty, unlike the boys who had grazed knees and muddy faces, and the people who go on about climbing trees are usually the same ones who complain that children of both sexes spend too much time indoors.

The whole thing really does seem like some sort of statement from the parents/teachers, and I can't help thinking that a lot of this is exactly that. Where are the qualified people in this? Why aren't they speaking out, one way or the other? Have they been silenced?

It comes across to me (who is entirely unqualified in this area) as a lot of half-baked 'theories' being spouted by people who know no more than I do, but are more concerned about appearing to be 'tolerant', or 'forward thinking', or what used to be called 'cool'.

Just as an aside here, I went to the gym today for the first time since Covid. It’s been refurbished in quite a few areas but the thing that struck me first was the signage.
Changing areas that were labelled Men and Women are now labelled Male and Female changing areas. ???

Very much agree Doodledog. I got the strong impression that, whilst "mada" was insisting that everything was completely gender neutral for the children, he was actively presenting more feminine choices in the way of clothing, hairstyles etc and his obvious pleasure when those items were picked, reinforced that the children had made "the right choices". Nika, and all those like him, have a difficult and confusing future ahead of them: continue to ignore what their body is telling them and fulfil your parents ideology, or go against a lifetimes lifestyle and be their biological sex. And that confusion has been deliberately caused by those who claim to be so caring, so non judgemental and oh-so-kind. No wonder young male suicide figures are so high.

You're lucky you got "Male" and "Femail" MollyGo; our leisure centre now has a "A Changing Village where people of all sexes can change for their swimming session". There's always a queue now for the disabled cubicles because no one wants to be stripping themselves, or their children, in front of others.

Things get more ridiculous all the time.

lascapigliata.com/institutional-capture/female-patient-denied-nhs-funding-for-treatment-of-painful-breast-condition/

"The greatest insult to me as a woman during these last few bitter years is the policy rationale as to why this service to women has been withdrawn, and to whom the recommendations for funding still applies. These are as follows:

1. Female Patients undergoing breast reconstruction as part of treatment for breast cancer.

2. Female Patients with PIP implants for whom national guidance applies.

3. Male Patients undergoing Gender Reassignment Surgery.

Yes, you read that correctly. A man who wishes to have breast surgery as part of his gender affirming care is now more eligible for funding to make his non medically necessary, dysphoria induced dreams come true over my, a natal woman’s, need to have a congenital issue resolved."

Chewbacca

You're lucky you got "Male" and "Femail" MollyGo; our leisure centre now has a "A Changing Village where people of all sexes can change for their swimming session". There's always a queue now for the disabled cubicles because no one wants to be stripping themselves, or their children, in front of others.

I m trying not to think about how delighted “some posters” would be. If there was always a queue at the gym, it would mean people would be late for or miss classes. Hopefully, if sufficient complaints are made about the queueing. mire cubicles will be set up.
Too much to expect the Woke lot to back down.