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the law as it stands on sex - part 3

(338 Posts)
Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 09:11:32

Two thousand posts so far!

To pick up where we left off, I’ll repeat my post from the end of the last thread - I got home too late to get any answers or many comments. I’ll keep the formatting to make it easier to bold, but will lost the bold type or italics:

I’ve been out this evening, so am just catching up with the thread, and have a few questions, if that’s ok.

trisher, you seem to find a lot of this funny, but I don’t see it like that at all.

What was the point of the ‘spot the transwoman’ game?

As Galaxy says, you are quick to label others, and I wouldn’t have thought being called an ‘ally’ would have struck you as offensive, but if you don’t like it I will try to remember not to use it in relation to you. Perhaps you would remember that many people on here (me included) find ‘cis’ offensive, and would return the favour?

I also see myself as someone who believes in human rights and equality. I posted the Amnesty list of human rights on this very thread, after VS insisted that the human rights of transpeople were being abused. I asked which ones were being denied, but there was no response from either of you.

Human rights are very important to me, but I really don’t think that being allowed to undress in front of the opposite sex is a human right, and can’t see anything on the Amnesty list that is being denied to transpeople. If you think otherwise, please state which ones they are, and I’ll reconsider.

VS, You say:
Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't
Can you please explain what you mean by that? I see it trotted out a lot, but nobody who repeats it has explained how it relates to the following situations:
Where there are people whose rights to undress in a single sex environment is violated by people asking for the right to use that environment as members of the opposite sex.

Where people want the right to compete fairly in a sport that they have trained for for years, but that right is violated by those who have stronger and differently proportioned bodies insisting on competing against them.

When people want the right to have agency over who touches them intimately but that right is violated by someone who does not declare their male sex to female patients/clients.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts, as I do see those things as violations of the rights of one group of people by another.

Also, what is it that you think that legislation has dealt with fairly, please?

Doodledog Mon 25-Apr-22 12:04:38

The idea of a Changing Village fills me with dread grin.

Wasn't there some research that linked girls' dropping out of sport with communal showers at school? This would be that with bells on! People of both sexes, of all ages and all shapes and sizes, those with no body-confidence alongside the exhibitionists, the anorexics alongside the body-shamers, the voyeurs and the introverts - the list goes on. And what about the dysphorics? The ones for whom this nonsense has supposedly been devised? Are they seriously going to use a facility like that?

SueDonim Mon 25-Apr-22 13:03:55

Chewbacca

This makes interesting, and rather disturbing reading, about Jamie Wallis MP, who has recently discovered his true self. Make sure you read right to the end.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-jamie-wallis-story-gets-darker

I felt quite ill after reading that, Chewbacca.

As for ‘Changing Village’ - does that mean you could go in as one sex and emerge as another? confused Maybe we need to take the Australian approach. This sign was at a caravan site we used.

SueDonim Mon 25-Apr-22 13:05:07

Sorry, my formatting and photo link didn’t go too well, but I’m sure you understand the gist.

Smileless2012 Mon 25-Apr-22 13:36:43

A Changing Villageshock for goodness sake whatever next.

DiamondLily Mon 25-Apr-22 13:39:19

Doodledog

The idea of a Changing Village fills me with dread grin.

Wasn't there some research that linked girls' dropping out of sport with communal showers at school? This would be that with bells on! People of both sexes, of all ages and all shapes and sizes, those with no body-confidence alongside the exhibitionists, the anorexics alongside the body-shamers, the voyeurs and the introverts - the list goes on. And what about the dysphorics? The ones for whom this nonsense has supposedly been devised? Are they seriously going to use a facility like that?

Communal showers, when I was at a girls senior school, back in the 60's, were bad enough.?

I cannot imagine too many children/teenagers, full of insecurities etc, being happy to share with anyone of the opposite sex (whatever they are calling themselves).

And I certainly wouldn't.

As for allowing children to be anything they like, without stereotypical clothes etc., my daughter was horse mad from when she could toddle. She spent most of her childhood and young adult life in jeans or jodhpurs.

But, it didn't mean she wanted to be a boy...?

SparklyGrandma Mon 25-Apr-22 13:57:00

I read in the Daily Record (Scotland) two weeks ago that two trans women had been accommodated in a women’s prison. They had to be separated after many complaints by staff and prisoners about their behaviour - openly having sex, dangling their exposed bits and being intimidating with it.

Doodledog Mon 25-Apr-22 14:19:04

Yes, SparklyGrandma, unfortunately that is a real issue. It's a real shame for 'genuine' transwomen, who were 'living as' women before being imprisoned, and would suffer more than most in male prisons, but the bottom line has to be that in a facility designed for women, women are not put at risk in order to minimise the risk to a minority of men.

The below is a long-ish read, and is taken from an even longer set of comments from a Crowdfunding page by Allison Bailey, a barrister who is suing Stonewall as she believes their manifesto to be discriminatory and damaging to women, children and gay people. You can read more here - it makes more sense if you scroll to the bottom and read each piece in reverse order:

The new trans activism: all scrutiny and critical voices labelled ‘transphobic’

In early 2018, when I first heard that plans were underway to make the lives of trans people easier, my reaction was that this was a good thing and I did not give it a second thought. I kept coming across the term ‘TERF’ but ignored it. I thought that bigots were simply being called out.

Then one day I clicked on a link: terfisaslur.com where someone had collated the online abuse that was being directed at women who I realised had entirely valid concerns and questions about the wisdom of replacing sex with gender.

I learnt that the new trans activism wants to smash the distinctions between men and women; replacing sex with notions of gender identity; making sexual difference a matter of self identification; and demands that any and every man that wishes to identify as a woman must be allowed to do so.

I learnt that the new trans activism is focusing, inexplicably, on young children and declaring them ‘trans’; treating puberty as a disease to be blocked with powerful drugs; delivering our young people into the arms of a multi-million pound industry of big pharmaceutical companies and plastic surgeons.

I saw that the same males who would have society regard them as women, were quick to brandish knives, axes, baseball bats and nooses, as they threatened with rape women who questioned the wisdom of replacing sex with gender —TERFs.

I realised that the new trans activism operated a crude but effective system of punishment and reward: agree with every demand of the trans lobby and be safe; object and face vilification, abuse, boycott, character assassination and cancellation.

I was horrified (and terrified).

I wanted to look away, to pretend that I had not seen it; that it did not reveal the worst woman-hating, lesbian hating, misogyny that I have ever come across in my lifetime.

I did not look away and I urge others not to either. Thanks to brave women who have come before me, such as the late, great, Magdalen Berns, whose courage and no nonsense approach to calling out the new trans activism as the men’s rights movement it so clearly is, gave me courage.

I realised that I did not have to accept that any man can claim to be legally a woman, without having to undergo any hormone or surgical intervention, psychological evaluation or risk assessment.

I realised that it was okay and necessary to say that it is reckless and irresponsible to think that men will only identify as women if they are stunning and brave and harmless: that the wicked, abusive, predatory, unwell and downright cantankerous will, by some miracle, refuse to take advantage of free and easy access to women, to their politics, safe spaces, sports, legal protections and identities.

I was shocked to discover that significant numbers of male sex offenders are permitted to identify as women and nothing is being done to stop them. In England and Wales, some 40 per cent or more of trans identified males in the prison population are men with convictions for sex offences, including rape and possession of the most serious indecent images of children. I witnessed a steady stream of news reports from around the world of males convicted of serious sex offences who identify as women.

It is repugnant to me and wholly unacceptable, and frankly unbelievable, that the new trans activism demands that these sex crimes are recorded as having been committed by women; and that these males can demand to be referred to by female pronouns.

I discovered that women incarcerated in prison are left vulnerable to serious sexual assault and mental anguish, as males, including sex offenders, are locked up with them. The new trans activism demands that a man’s desire to identify as a woman is more important than the right of imprisoned women to safety and dignity. These women have no way to escape, no choice; they are locked up. I do not see how this is anything other than state facilitated abuse and mental torture.

Where there should have been discussion, investigation and inquiry, there has been the silencing of concerned and critical voices; not voices from the rabid right wing, but from women like me, who are of and from the progressive left.

Mantras have been chanted because the new trans activism is a movement that cannot bear scrutiny: TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN; TRANS RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS; TRANS PEOPLE ARE WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE; PROTECT OUR TRANS SIBLINGS, and so on, does nothing to engage with and address the serious concerns that exist about replacing sex with gender.

The new trans activists are joined by politicians, journalists, lawyers, writers, entire organisations, and assorted celebrities, in the chanting of these mantras to shut down debate, while others who are appalled at what they see happening are too afraid to speak out. It is cult like behaviour, it is Orwellian, and it has disgraced and shamed a generation.

Labelling all critical voices ‘transphobic’ is a cynical political ploy of the new trans activism. It must be resisted.

DiamondLily Mon 25-Apr-22 14:37:44

It doesn't matter how it's dressed up - it's what it appears to be.

A minority movement, basically led by biological men, supported by some women, trying to bully, coerce, and threaten all biological women into doing exactly as they want and say. To go where they like, do what they like, be a patient/prisoner where they like, or examine anyone, call themselves what they like, and insist everyone joins in, regardless of the effects on others.

No matter who gets caught up in the crossfire. And, also including some TW who just want to live quietly without all this over egged fuss and drama trans rights saga from activists..

Do what we say, or suffer the consequences is their mantra.

Mollygo Mon 25-Apr-22 14:57:18

FarNorth
Yes, you read that correctly. A man who wishes to have breast surgery as part of his gender affirming care is now more eligible for funding to make his non medically necessary, dysphoria induced dreams come true over my, a natal woman’s, need to have a congenital issue resolved."

That’s unfortunately only too believable, but appalling nevertheless.

Elegran Mon 25-Apr-22 15:31:14

Watching that very interesting film about Swedish children without gender, I did wonder what was so reprehensible about allowing children to be, and be recognised as, whatever they were born as (not just "assigned" but observed to be from their genitalia) and just having a variety of clothes, duvet covers, toys, books, activities, outings, friends and so on. They will pick which of those they fancy at any particular time, and naturally gravitate to what suits them. For almost everyone the days are past when ALL girls wore frilly dresses and never got dirty, and ALL boys spent their time covered in mud and fighting one another.

It isn't a new thing, either. My three offspring are now in their fifties. They were all different as children, in spite of having the same upbringing, with the girls not treated as especially girly, nor the boy sent to take up boxing lessons. Toys were inherited from a (boy) cousin, so the girls enjoyed construction sets as well as dolls and dressing up clothes, and passed on to their brother, so he had his share of the same variety.

When they were all in secondary school, I came home one afternoon to find older daughter with her motor scooter in pieces, finding and repairing a fault. Indoors, I was accosted by her brother, who wanted to know how he could narrow the legs of some jeans he had just bought.

That didn't take high-falutin theorising about them being brought up genderless and choosing whether they wanted to be girls or boys so as to live their real lives - just the acceptance that girls can sort out engines and boys can alter clothes, if those are skills needed in their lives. Forty years later, they are all adults of the sex that they were born into, with no angst about it. They all cook, sew, and do DIY, gardening, and house and car maintenance. One used to be into sports when younger, one still cycles, one has a disabled spouse and does a lot of the things that would have been considered as the realm of the opposite sex, and they all have an equal input in the care of children, the earning and spending of money, and in all household decisions.

Elegran Mon 25-Apr-22 15:48:46

I noticed in that film that in spite of the determination not to influence the gender of the children, it was obvious that the (intersex) Mapa would prefer it if five-year-old Mika chose to be a girl. The clothes produced from which to choose what to wear today were all dresses, and the hair-stylist was steered towards a long style. Mika is clearly a very intelligent and sensitive child, and was very tactful in responses to Mapa, but I wonder what things will be like in ten years' time? Mika is a pretty child, and my lasting impression was of a girl, but I thought from grandmother's comments (when away from Mapa) that perhaps Mika is male. However maybe grandmother's concern is about the younger child, 3-year-old Nico, who does look more like a boy.

Doodledog Mon 25-Apr-22 17:11:14

I've been back to read the Allison Bailey page again, and she really does talk a lot of sense. I hope her case succeeds, as I'm sure she speaks for a lot of women who aren't in her position to object to the way Stonewall operates.

Rosie51 Mon 25-Apr-22 17:40:08

I've just read it again too Doodledog, thanks for the tip about doing it from the bottom up, it really does paint the timeline more clearly. I saw a little live tweeting from the hearing and like that as well as pronouns being respected Allison is not to be referred to as 'cis' as she finds that offensive. The judge asks in order to differentiate between trans and non-trans should she just be referred to as a woman? YES YES YES that's what we want women and transwomen, clarity all the way.

Fennel Mon 25-Apr-22 19:03:07

Elegran thanks for that.
Your family sounds similar to mine.
I was talking to my daughter the other day about the issue and one of the things she said was "When we were children me and my friends were 'tomboys' and no-one worried about it".
She still is a tomboy, but never had the idea that this means she should go to the length of changing. Our boys too have some 'female' characteristics.
So what has happpened in the years between to lead to these problems?

Elegran Mon 25-Apr-22 19:22:50

Fennel I put some of it down to Walt Disney and "Princess culture". When I was a child, about the same era as you were, even Disney films weren't like that. I saw "Snow White", where Snow White was a pretty girl, yes, but she wasn't as impossibly glamourous and seductive as a Hollywood starlet. Since then, Disney heroines have gradually become every little girl's dream of perfection. They are portrayed as feisty and independent, but they are also shaped and made up like adult temptresses - and they squeal at spiders and snakes.

Doodledog Mon 25-Apr-22 19:45:46

So what has happpened in the years between to lead to these problems?

Maybe women and gay people have gained more rights and legal protections, and men have found a way to bat them back by imposing 1950s stereotypes of what it means to be a woman or a man?

If you are a woman and don't conform to those stereotypes, it must be because you are 'really' a man, and if you are a boy who seems to be a bit 'feminine', you must 'really' be a girl.

There is no such thing as homosexuality, as same-sex attraction can only exist where there is sex. If sex is replaced with 'gender', same-gender attraction is absolutely open to interpretation - so if you are a lesbian, and attracted to women, you are deemed to be open to the idea of sex with transwomen (TWAW, remember) and must be transphobic if you don't like the idea on account of their being men. So straight men can have sex with straight women, as always, but also with transwomen, if they have suppressed gay urges and lesbians, who probably just needed a good seeing to anyway.

Transmen are likely to be lighter, weaker and smaller than men, so unlikely to pose a threat, particularly if they have been socialised as female. So we end up with men able to dominate transmen, women and transwomen. What's not to love?

As if all that is not enough, men can gain access to places where women are powerless, such as jails and hospitals, intimidate them in changing rooms, 'compete' against them in sport, and intimately examine/assault them in situations where the women don't realise that it is a man who is touching them. All they need to do is say the magic words 'I am a woman' and access is granted, with anyone who disagrees intimidated, threatened with violence or written off as 'phobic'.

Women are written out of research projects, as where once women meant 'adult human female', now we are told it means anyone who 'presents as' a woman, and who shares political views with 'allies', so figures on things like pension deficits, educational attainment, pay differentials and crime become meaningless.

Who is behind all this? I don't suppose it is one evil genius cackling and rubbing his hands in glee; but the patriarchy failed to suppress women as much as it would like to, and the far right would love to see women back in the kitchen, preferably in a pretty dress and high heels.

Mollygo Mon 25-Apr-22 20:06:48

I’ve just taken time to read the Allison Bailey page. Thanks for that. I think I’ll need to read it again, but once more it seems to be a case of one group denying the rights, not only of females but of all LGB people. Brave woman Allison.

Doodledog Mon 25-Apr-22 21:30:08

She is definitely brave.

What struck me is the cost of it all. Allison has been able to get crowdfunding, and she is a barrister, but how many people with no legal contacts could afford to risk money like that?

If a group like Stonewall (or any powerful group) can throw money at court cases that people are bringing in their own defence, it feels like a massive imbalance of the scales of justice, doesn't it?

Rosie51 Mon 25-Apr-22 23:39:25

If a group like Stonewall (or any powerful group) can throw money at court cases that people are bringing in their own defence, it feels like a massive imbalance of the scales of justice, doesn't it? this is what drives me crazy. Anyone who subscribes to the view that sex is immutable, there are only two sexes and gender is pretty meaningless as a scientific factor is according to TRAs part of a group 'funded by right wing Christians/activists/bigots' take your choice. Well I'm still waiting for my payment, although I've supported as many cases like Maya's, Allison's, James Esses, and Rosario's as I'm able. I'm so disappointed that Raquel Rosario Sánchez lost her case against Bristol University, although the judge seemed to agree she'd been bullied, but the University doesn't have a duty to protect her from that? It seems to me that Stonewall gets massive funding from many sources, but the 'GC' side always relies on ordinary people putting their hands in their pockets.

So looking forward to Allison's case, Stonewall will have to answer questions yet again, and when 'the cotton ceiling' gets examined that should open many an eye.

Doodledog Mon 25-Apr-22 23:42:22

The case is ongoing, Rosie. You can follow it vicariously on Mumsnet, as people on there have got some sort of tickets to watch it on Zoom and are reporting to the thread in real time.

Rosie51 Mon 25-Apr-22 23:45:37

Thanks for that link Doodledog I tried to keep up with the live tweeting but as we had a plumbing emergency today I was a bit intermittent.

Doodledog Tue 26-Apr-22 00:06:38

I hope you’ve got your plumbing sorted.

I’m grateful to the Mumsnetters for their dedication to the cause, and to letting those without tickets in on the action.

Rosie51 Tue 26-Apr-22 00:22:56

Doodledog

I hope you’ve got your plumbing sorted.

I’m grateful to the Mumsnetters for their dedication to the cause, and to letting those without tickets in on the action.

Sort of thanks 'fingers firmly crossed', at least the ceiling didn't collapse!

I forgot that Mumsnet usually has a thread on these court cases, although that was my prime source of news when Kiera Bell had her hearing.

DiamondLily Tue 26-Apr-22 05:02:29

After the flak she took for supporting Alison Bailey, JKR has lobbed another tweet into the argument.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10751871/JK-Rowling-tweets-image-white-bearded-Stonewall-approved-lesbian-facing-fury.html

(Sorry it's always from the DM, but they are the newspaper taking up cudgels on behalf of biological women).

Mollygo Tue 26-Apr-22 08:01:39

Thanks for these links.
Don’t apologise for the DM. We need a newspaper that will be read by many to raise awareness of what’s going on.