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the law as it stands on sex - part 3

(338 Posts)
Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 09:11:32

Two thousand posts so far!

To pick up where we left off, I’ll repeat my post from the end of the last thread - I got home too late to get any answers or many comments. I’ll keep the formatting to make it easier to bold, but will lost the bold type or italics:

I’ve been out this evening, so am just catching up with the thread, and have a few questions, if that’s ok.

trisher, you seem to find a lot of this funny, but I don’t see it like that at all.

What was the point of the ‘spot the transwoman’ game?

As Galaxy says, you are quick to label others, and I wouldn’t have thought being called an ‘ally’ would have struck you as offensive, but if you don’t like it I will try to remember not to use it in relation to you. Perhaps you would remember that many people on here (me included) find ‘cis’ offensive, and would return the favour?

I also see myself as someone who believes in human rights and equality. I posted the Amnesty list of human rights on this very thread, after VS insisted that the human rights of transpeople were being abused. I asked which ones were being denied, but there was no response from either of you.

Human rights are very important to me, but I really don’t think that being allowed to undress in front of the opposite sex is a human right, and can’t see anything on the Amnesty list that is being denied to transpeople. If you think otherwise, please state which ones they are, and I’ll reconsider.

VS, You say:
Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't
Can you please explain what you mean by that? I see it trotted out a lot, but nobody who repeats it has explained how it relates to the following situations:
Where there are people whose rights to undress in a single sex environment is violated by people asking for the right to use that environment as members of the opposite sex.

Where people want the right to compete fairly in a sport that they have trained for for years, but that right is violated by those who have stronger and differently proportioned bodies insisting on competing against them.

When people want the right to have agency over who touches them intimately but that right is violated by someone who does not declare their male sex to female patients/clients.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts, as I do see those things as violations of the rights of one group of people by another.

Also, what is it that you think that legislation has dealt with fairly, please?

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 20:38:19

Chewbacca

The poster explicitly demands young women not to question any male in their bathroom. So young women, away from home for the first time, on a huge university campus, are actually instructed not query why a man is in the toilets. It goes even further; she should seek to protect him! The fact that he's likely to be bigger, stronger and faster than she is is, apparently a moot point.

WOMAN! BE QUIET! SIT DOWN! MOVE OVER! A MAN WANTS YOUR SPACE!

That’s the message of a lot of it, isn’t it? Let men run against you in a race you can’t possibly win. Let them join the all-woman shortlist for a boardroom role, or into the groups that have been formed to encourage girls to study STEM subjects, or into the girls’ dorms on school trips, so some parents will keep their daughters at home - it goes on and on.

But our rights are not being violated - we are being unkind, intolerant, phobic.

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 21:01:37

we are being unkind, intolerant, phobic. Well, if that's the spin being put on standing up for my right to not have a penis haver in the toilets, changing rooms, next hospital bed, carrying out an intimate physical examination, refuge, prison cell or running in a competition against me........ I'll own that. And in return, I promise not to go into a man's toilet, changing room, next hospital bed, refuge or prison cell and I definitely won't compete against him in any sport or give him an intimate physical examination. wink

Mollygo Sat 23-Apr-22 21:21:08

I promise not to go into a man's toilet, changing room, next hospital bed, refuge or prison cell and I definitely won't compete against him in any sport or give him an intimate physical examination.

I promise not to do any of those things either.

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 21:22:11

Mollygo

^I promise not to go into a man's toilet, changing room, next hospital bed, refuge or prison cell and I definitely won't compete against him in any sport or give him an intimate physical examination.^

I promise not to do any of those things either.

I’m in grin

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 21:44:18

From Newsweek 21.04.2022 warning: this is a long read with a lot of words

There is a frightening new version of homophobia pervading the U.S., disguised as, of all things, "LGBTQ" activism. For adult gay people like me, it's clear that this activism does not advance our equality, but in fact compromises our ability to live peacefully in society. In fact, it is threatening our very existence.

I first became aware of this new homophobia in the summer of 2017, when I interned at a major LGBTQ-rights organization. That January, I had enrolled at Columbia University to complete my undergraduate degree, a goal I had been postponing for over a decade. After volunteering for Maryland's marriage equality campaign and a subsequent transgender rights legislation campaign, my aspiration was to become a social justice writer and activist.
My excitement about the internship quickly gave way to a nauseating mixture of fear and shame. I was, I quickly learned, not the right kind of "queer." I was just another "cis" (short for "cisgender," a word I had never even heard until it was assigned to me, typically as a slur) gay male—in other words, a privileged and unevolved relic of the past. After all, I had my rights—the right to marry, the right to serve openly in the military, the right to assimilate into this oppressive, "cisheteronormative," patriarchal society. It was time to make way for a new generation of "queer," one that had very little to do with sex-based rights and more to do with abolishing the concepts of sex and sexuality altogether.

At the time, I was exhausting so much mental energy memorizing my coworkers' pronouns and all of the new progressive dogmas out of fear that I would be fiercely condemned if I slipped up, I had none left to think critically or to question where any of these dogmas had even come from. Thankfully, and somewhat serendipitously, the following semester I enrolled in a class called U.S. Lesbian and Gay History, led by the prominent gay historian George Chauncey. It was there that the culture I had encountered at my internship—and, of course, on Columbia's uber-progressive and exceedingly "queer" campus—began to make sense.

In that class, I learned about queer theory, an obscure academic discipline based largely on the writing of the late French intellectual Michel Foucault, who believed that society categorizes people—male or female, heterosexual or homosexual—in order to oppress them. The solution is to intentionally blur—or "queer"—the boundaries of these categories. Soon this "queering" became the predominant method of discussing and analyzing gender and sexuality in universities.
With the proliferation of social media, which disseminates ideological dogma faster than any religious institution in history, academics-cum-activists can reduce these theories into palatable, easy-to-digest-and-regurgitate maxims, especially on platforms like Twitter, Tumblr and now TikTok. Which is how, suddenly, we have a massive uptick in trans- and "non-binary"-identifying youth. Queer theorists insist that subverting the categorizations which have been imposed upon young people—for example, the sex they were "assigned" at birth—is the ultimate expression of autonomy, and further, the key to liberating society from a system devised largely, so they claim, by cisgender white men. (Never mind the scientific and cultural achievements of women and racial minorities.)

This might not be a concern if, by adopting these new identities, young people were merely playing with the boundaries of normative gender expression—something that gays, lesbians, feminists, most liberals and even many conservatives would welcome two decades into the 21st century. But many young boys do not stop at simply painting their fingernails and wearing dresses, and young girls do more than cut their hair short and play football. With increasing frequency, these children are given drugs to block their puberty, cross-sex hormones and irreversible surgeries, all the while cheered on first by online communities, then the mainstream media and now the current presidential administration.

In rare instances, medicalization is the proper path for gender-nonconforming youth, in particular those whose gender dysphoria—a "marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months," as the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5 defines it—originated very early in life, causes acute mental distress and shows no signs of ceasing without medical intervention. But according to the 10 major follow-up studies on youth gender dysphoria to date, the vast majority (as much as 85 percent) end up desisting during or after puberty—that is, they become comfortable with their biological sex and no longer wish to identify as the opposite sex.

And what else did these studies find? That the vast majority identified as gay, lesbian or bisexual in adulthood. Even without these studies, most gays and lesbians could have told you as much. Gender-nonconformity, after all, is a very common experience for most of us during childhood. I, for one, was relentlessly bullied in grade school for my femininity. "Are you a boy or a girl?" the kids would taunt, when they hadn't already flung that oh-so-effective six-letter F-word at me. As a child, spinning around in my older sisters' flowery skirts, I often imagined myself as a girl, too. Even in adulthood, I occasionally, though not often, think of myself as the opposite sex, an experience I speculate is common for gay men. After all, our inherent disposition gives us the benefit of perceiving life through a dual-gendered lens. But I have grown up to be a well-adjusted, successful, even masculine man, comfortable in his sex and, at long last—and despite the long-term effects of bullying and of a childhood spent in anti-gay religious fundamentalism—with my homosexuality.

Sure, the religious far right remains something of a threat, and I, like any other gay person, can still be stung by anti-gay slurs and can fear the threat of violence in less-accepting spaces. But today I am equally fearful of the radical activists I once longed to emulate, activists who push a regressive, anti-liberal agenda that reifies gender stereotypes, downplays the seriousness of long-term medicalization and ultimately seeks to abolish my identity—for without biological sex, there is no homosexuality. Today, the least-accepting spaces for people like me are, of all places, the halls of LGBT rights organizations, where the threat might not be violence but is nevertheless terrible stigmatization and shame.

www.newsweek.com/new-homophobia-opinion-1698969

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 22:40:21

That makes such a lot of sense.

It’s tragic, really. Why can’t people stop meddling, and let others live their lives? Telling people that they should, or even can, become a member of the opposite sex is cruel, as it just isn’t possible, and of course it has implications for sexuality as well as reinforcing gender norms and expectations.

There is an obvious political agenda in all this, and there are confused and unhappy people being used as cannon fodder.

Rosie51 Sat 23-Apr-22 23:04:43

I'll just leave this here.

Rosie51 Sat 23-Apr-22 23:08:44

I'm not sure the text is readable, it says:
The fact that society believes a man who says he's a woman, instead of a woman who says he's not, is proof that society knows exactly who is the man and who is the woman.

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 23:13:32

The really dumb thing about all this Doodledog is that the Stonewall, TRAs and their allies just cannot see that their dogmatic insistence that EVERYONE must shove up, make room, adjust your lives to make space for them has been completely counter productive. A huge amount of harm has been caused to children, young people, the abused and mentally fragile, women, gays, lesbians..... not to mention the ordinary trans person in the street who just wants to live his life in peace. Stonewall has a LOT to answer for. But, the tide is slowly turning because 6 months ago, that article would never have been published and Hilary Cass was being denounced as a transphobe; but she's being listened to now.

I'm glad that these threads have been available to be used as a repository for the exchanges of information and data; and have allowed people, who perhaps hadn't realised how Stonewall's dogma is affecting everyone, in every day life, to voice their concerns. The only joke hmm is that there are still those who cannot see that they've alienated a huge swathe of society with their aggressive manipulations.

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 23:16:23

Love it Rosie51! I'll give you......

Rosie51 Sun 24-Apr-22 00:09:54

grin

FarNorth Sun 24-Apr-22 01:00:56

Here is a very informative article about the situation of women prisoners forced to share accommodation with male prisoners who claim to be women.

archive.ph/2x9vQ

"what shocked me the most was when she told me in a completely matter-of-fact voice, we have to call them ‘she’ and use their female names and if we don’t we get a punishment. Even the ones who are sexual offenders?! Yes. Even the ones who show off their penises in the shower with you?! Yes. If we don’t we get a punishment."

Rosie51 Sun 24-Apr-22 01:25:45

That's so shocking, yet in some ways no surprise sad We thought females were at last gaining a meaningful equality in many areas, then we're brought back to earth that no, we still don't count as full humans. And what hurts even more? That other females support the people that are enforcing this madness....... the 'it'll never happen to me or mine, so I'll shut my eyes and mind to the injustice and brutality of it' brigade. Sometimes I feel so ashamed of my sex class then I remember the courage of women like Allison Bailey, Kathleen Stock, Kiera Bell, J K Rowling, Rosie Duffield etc etc and I have hope again.

DiamondLily Sun 24-Apr-22 04:52:55

Well, and here's today's piece of lunacy. Underpants, for little boys (as young as 4 years old) to flatten their genitals, assisting on their road to "authentic, self determining identity"...Ye Gods. ?

Doctors have advised flattening the genitals of small children could cause permanent physical damage to boys.

Baroness Nicholson has commented this could be illegal, and a form of child abuse.

"Under a dedicated ‘Kids’ section on its website, the company says: ‘Carmen Liu Kids is here for trans girls and non-binary children in their journey. We are the world’s first company (you heard!) to listen to the children that need us.

Each product is here to provide children with the stepping stones to finding themselves, in a supportive, validating experience.’

It adds: ‘We are here to provide gender expression products for trans girls and non-binary children in aim [sic] of finding their true, authentic self.’

But Tory peer Baroness Nicholson said: ‘I am truly horrified. The makers, sellers and distributors of these items are breaking the Children’s Act and are heavily abusing the NHS health criteria for children."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10746809/Transgender-designer-accused-child-abuse-selling-pants-flatten-genitals-boys.html

Madgran77 Sun 24-Apr-22 07:37:34

"If someone wants to live quietly (or noisily for that matter!) and be accepted amongst groups of women, all they need to do is not go into a line of work that involves intimate examinations, not compete against women in sport, and be sensitive about where they undress"

I think that is a good summary really!

Allsorts Sun 24-Apr-22 07:51:08

I don’t want to be in hospital next to a man or use public toilets shared by men, If you have a penis use the make facilities if you’ve a womb use the female ones. The thought of desperate women in a refuge having males in there is frightening, their rights and those of their children come first after the battering and cruelty they and their families have endured. I’m sorry their rights come first. Just where has all the common sense gone? The minority have to fit in with the masses, not the other may round. To talk about children being bisexual and trans is unbelievable just what planet are they on, in my opinion it’s child abuse and perversion, does untold damage.

They are children, let them be that.

FarNorth Sun 24-Apr-22 08:12:50

"[Dr Shiban Ahmed] said that could destroy the chances of fatherhood for boys who later changed their minds about becoming female."

Boys who are far too young to decide that, in the first place.

This isn't being led by children but by adults who must be seriously disturbed.

Iam64 Sun 24-Apr-22 08:52:09

FarNorth, thanks for the link to the interview with the female prisoner. What can be done to stop the nonsense where men can self ID and serve their sentence in a women’s prison? It’s no surprise that sex offenders, men with a propensity to abuse women are prevalent in this category. I expect to be roundly condemned for reaching that conclusion as I haven’t seen any research. I base it on years of experience.

Someone earlier asked if tube Tavi Gids unit had kept figures of children given hormone, surgeryand other treatments who later wanted to revert to their original sex. No such figures have been kept.

Mollygo Sun 24-Apr-22 09:21:31

DL
Well, and here's today's piece of lunacy. Underpants, for little boys (as young as 4 years old) to flatten their genitals, assisting on their road to "authentic, self determining identity"...Ye Gods. ?

A follow-on from the binders being supplied via Lush for flattening girls breasts, regardless of the harm it can do.

Sex shows, binders, genitalia flatteners? There are some seriously sick people around.

DiamondLily Sun 24-Apr-22 09:44:42

Mollygo

DL
Well, and here's today's piece of lunacy. Underpants, for little boys (as young as 4 years old) to flatten their genitals, assisting on their road to "authentic, self determining identity"...Ye Gods. ?

A follow-on from the binders being supplied via Lush for flattening girls breasts, regardless of the harm it can do.

Sex shows, binders, genitalia flatteners? There are some seriously sick people around.

It does feel as though there is some sort of mission creep, to remove children from their "childhood", and treat them as adults.

A four year old cannot possibly decide he wants to be a different gender, and, frankly no four year old should even be thinking about it, let alone being part of any discussion.

Worrying. ?

FarNorth Sun 24-Apr-22 10:09:55

Some posters here were asking "What's funny?"
Well, apparently transwoman Grace Lavery is, in his recently published book about his penis :

"Parts of the book are unwittingly hilarious. Lavery writes about the ‘panic’ over trans women (ie, blokes) using women’s toilets, with gender-critical types pushing the bigoted idea that trans women are ‘erotically fixated on the idea of women urinating’. Then, literally in the next paragraph, he says: ‘[But] going to the bathroom is kind of sexy? At least, I have occasionally found it to be so.’ My man, this is why they don’t want you in their loos."

www.spiked-online.com/2022/04/23/how-the-trans-ideology-dehumanises-women/

Lavery, recently interviewed on Woman's Hour btw, is clearly not one of those timorous transwomen who are hugely upset by their male anatomy.

Mollygo Sun 24-Apr-22 10:16:16

DL, with clothes being so unisex; even our school uniform does not specify who can wear what, I can’t help but think this gender choice at 4 is a bit Münchausen by proxy.
Interestingly, the parents who wanted their son to be acknowledged as a girl all the way through primary, chose to enter him for the Boys’ Grammar entrance exam. He didn’t get in, but I don’t know what he identifies as now, because they moved out of our area soon after.

DiamondLily Sun 24-Apr-22 10:21:48

Mollygo

DL, with clothes being so unisex; even our school uniform does not specify who can wear what, I can’t help but think this gender choice at 4 is a bit Münchausen by proxy.
Interestingly, the parents who wanted their son to be acknowledged as a girl all the way through primary, chose to enter him for the Boys’ Grammar entrance exam. He didn’t get in, but I don’t know what he identifies as now, because they moved out of our area soon after.

I think it's just so harmful to be flattening breasts and genitals while children are still growing.

Let them be children.

Young children cannot possibly know about and make that choice, so it's parents obviously saying they had a child of one sex, but want a child of another.

How must that make a child feel? ?

Smileless2012 Sun 24-Apr-22 11:07:50

Let them be children exactly DL. They should be playing with their friends and their toys, enjoying their childhood while they can, not wearing underwear to flatten their bodies.

What are these parents thinking? It does make you wonder if this is because these parents did have a child of one sex, but want a child of another. It's like a script of a bad and very frightening horror film, and what makes it really scary is that this is actually happening.

Doodledog Sun 24-Apr-22 11:27:31

I honestly don't know what I would do if I were a parent and a child of, say, 14 told me they wanted to change gender. I would absolutely want to support them to do anything to make them happy, and it would be my role as a parent to advocate for them and help them to navigate what would obviously be a difficult situation.

On the other hand, I like to think that I would have picked up on signs that things were going wrong long before they were 14. I have no direct experience, so this may be mistaken, but I assume you don't go to bed a happy, well-adjusted child, and get up knowing you are in the wrong body? There must be a build up of some kind, and I hope I'd have spotted their unhappiness and been able to intervene at an earlier stage.

I wouldn't know where to start to get therapy that wouldn't push them further down a road of 'transition at all costs', though, and would be wary of going too far the other way and making their unhappiness worse. I really think that there should be a lot more open discussion and help for parents in this position - and not the sort that is tied to clinics and pharma companies who profit from transitions.

If I had a 4 year old who insisted he was a girl (or she was a boy), again I'd be wary of getting things wrong, but I'd be more inclined to try to jolly them along. My nephew insisted that he was Hercules for a while, and we all just went along with it until he grew out of it and got cross when we didn't use his real name.

What I would really like to know is why this is happening in such large numbers now, when it didn't in the past? I can understand that a lot of things weren't understood before, and that 'awkward' or 'difficult' things were often brushed under the carpet, so eg dyslexics were assumed to have low IQ; but what were all these children assumed to be up until the last few years? Surely they would have presented with differences of some sort, and those differences would be noticeable?

I can think of one or two boys who were probably hiding the fact that they were gay when I was at school, and no girls, although there will have been significantly more of both sexes, and none presented as such at the age of 5. I can think of no children at any stage who insisted they were of the other sex, though. A few girls thought they were more like boys, because they liked climbing trees, but a more arbitrary metric is difficult to think of. That is a perfect example of why gender norms should never determine the sex that someone 'is inside', surely? Girls wanting to be treated like the boys were, at a time when boys often did no chores, were given more freedom, played better games with more interesting toys is understandable, but not indicative of a deeper meaning. So where were all the dysphorics then? What happened to the teenage boys who 'just knew' they were girls and not gay boys? Why didn't lots of reception class children come to school in clothing considered gender inappropriate (or suffer anguish if not allowed to do so)? I would really be interested to understand the shift, if it is not being driven by nefarious forces, probably with profit as their motive.