the law as it stands on sex - part 3

The alternative to frontal birth is rectal birth - back bottom instead of front bottom. I didn't know our anatomical surgeons were that clever!

Exactly Elegran.

On another subject, I checked to see if there is any info on the Scottish Prison Service's review of its transgender policy.
The answer is 'not really' but here's a link to what they say :

www.sps.gov.uk/Corporate/News/News-8125.aspx

Also, here is a link to info on the number of trans prisoners in Scottish prisons.
I was surprised to see that there were 2 transmen housed in the male estate.

www.sps.gov.uk/FreedomofInformation/FOI-8207.aspx

"RFI1: How many trans women have been placed in women’s prison settings and young offenders’ institutions (YOIs) in Scotland over the last five years? If possible, please break down the response by year, from 1 Jan 2017 up to 31 December 2021.

RFI2: How many trans men have been placed in men’s prison settings and young offenders’ institutions (YOIs) in Scotland over the last five years? If possible, please break down the response by year, from 1 Jan 2017 up to 31 December 2021.

RFI3: How many complaints has the Scottish Prison Service received about the placement of trans prisoners since the SPS published its Gender Identity and Gender Reassignment Policy in 2014. If possible, please break down the response by year.

RFI4 : How many prisoners, who identify as trans female, were serving a custodial sentence in 2021 in Scotland across all SPS settings.

RFI5: How many prisoners, who identify as trans male, were serving a custodial sentence in 2021 in Scotland across all SPS settings.

We have now completed our search for the information you requested which is provided.

The SPS Prisoner Record System is a live database, therefore we are unable to provide historical data as requested. As the prison population constantly fluctuates, any information gathered is only accurate at the point in which it is extracted.

In order to provide the most accurate picture possible regarding transgender individuals in our care, we have picked a data point (in this instance 3 December 2021) and contacted each establishment directly to confirm accuracy of the data extracted at that time.

RFI1 Response: As at 3 December 2021, there are 6 transgender women in the female estate.

RFI2 Response: As at 3 December 2021, there are 2 transgender men in the male estate.

RFI3 Response: We do endeavour to provide information whenever possible. However, in this instance the costs of locating, retrieving and providing the information requested would exceed the upper cost limit of £600. As there is no specific category regarding this type of complaint in the data we hold, your request would therefore require a manual check of all complaints submitted since 2014. Under section 12 of FOISA public authorities are not required to comply with a request for information if the authority estimates that the cost of complying would exceed the upper cost limit, which is currently set at £600 by Regulations made under section 12.

RFI4 Response: As at 3 December 2021, there are 11 transgender women in our care.

RFI5 Response: As at 3 December 2021, there are 4 transgender men in our care."

Well, this latest news item has me baffled. How can they possibly be sure this body is representative of a woman? After all, if TW are W then she could have the characteristics of a male body, surely? And the irony of it coming from Brighton, the land of chest-feeding and birth-givers.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-61258731

I wonder if medical students are being taught about women (ie transwomen) and ‘cis’ women (hitherto known as women) when it comes to anatomy?

They need, of course, to be taught the differences between male and female bodies for purposes of diagnosis and treatment, but the further down the rabbit hole we go, the more likely it is that we will end up with ‘men’ and ‘women’ meaning transmen and transwomen, with cis men and cis women used to describe old fashioned male and female people.

"Lupron, the hormone blocker some doctors seem intent on giving to kids like Tylenol, isn’t even FDA-approved to treat children with gender dysphoria. (In 2001, the manufacturer pled guilty to fraudulent sales practices with regard to its marketing as a prostate-cancer drug.) We don’t yet know its long-term effects off-label, despite the fact parents have been assured that its effects are safe and even reversible."

quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like/?fbclid=IwAR2qlDB4ZBkqc5vqo5jYNMWERe93a80Hs56_4Kb199HgCZN3q9szIFuSK2o

Doodledog

Gossamerbeynon1945

Doodledog - I agree with everything you have said. Imagine giving birth through a penis - it's hystercial! How does it work anatomically?

It doesn't .

Transmen are women who want to be men, but because of their female bodies can get pregnant. I don't have figures, but I can't imagine that many women simultaneously 'know that they are men', have sex as woman and go on to get pregnant, but nevertheless, the move to change the language in maternity wards is to avoid 'triggering' transmen, who don't want to be reminded of the fact that they are women by being included in the female terminology that surrounds maternity. They want so-called 'gender-neutral' language to be used instead, with mothers referred to as 'birth givers' and so on.

Nobody is suggesting that men are actually giving birth - transmen are not men, any more than transwomen are women; but their fantasy that this is the case is driving the agenda, as in so much of what goes on in the name of trans.

I take it back!

Sorry, I assumed it was a misunderstanding, but no, it seems that midwives are being taught to assist men to give birth.

It looks as though it’s been a typo or some other sort of misunderstanding, or it was written by one of the captured, but the scary thing is that nobody spotted it before it was too late, and the midwives taking the course didn’t dare to question it.

When is this dictatorship going to end? Surely, even the most ardent of trans supporters can’t think that this is not deeply worrying? Come on, trisher? VS, volver? Anyone?

How can it not be a massive red flag when midwives are too scared to point out that men can’t get pregnant, and that it’s not possible to deliver a baby when there is no birth canal, aka a vagina? How?

It wasn't a typo, or any normal misunderstanding, as there were 2 pages of info about male catheterisation.

It's complete stupidity, and appalling that students were afraid to say anything because of the level of indoctrination they are getting.

No-one is going to defend this as all the usual gang have left this thread to get away from the mean girls.

A TW charity, Mermaids, has advised TW to call someone they trust, or dial 999 if asked to leave a "female only" space.

"Mermaids said it was ‘not happy’ with the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s ruling that trans women can be excluded from female-only spaces if there is a legitimate reason, such as protecting privacy.

Last month the EHRC published guidance to help venues make lawful decisions on services they offer to women and men separately, such as toilets."

I would have thought that the police had better things to be doing.?

I wonder if it's also ok for biological women to dial 999, if we feel unsafe sharing female only places?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10773693/Trans-women-advised-call-999-leave-female-spaces.html

I wonder if it's also ok for biological women to dial 999, if we feel unsafe sharing female only places?

I have this image of people frantically dialling 999 to complain about each other.
We’re back to the place where, if a TW makes it obvious that they’re a male then they shouldn’t be in female spaces. I recall being told by the absent few that TW had been among us, unnoticed for years.
Maybe that’s because those TW wished to remain unnoticed, not to foist themselves on females just to prove they can.

That's the concern....I've got visions of activists, pushing every reasonable boundary, just to cause a fuss, because they can.?

I do think, to be honest, the police should be concentrating on "serious" crime, and not having to pander to all this.

It'll also put venues/shops in a difficult position, as their goal is that everyone feels safe and comfortable.

If, I, as a biological woman, feel unsafe, with an obvious male sharing the space, but "he" is threatening to phone the police, or take action against the venue, who takes priority?

How can it not be a massive red flag when midwives are too scared to point out that men can’t get pregnant, and that it’s not possible to deliver a baby when there is no birth canal, aka a vagina? How? This. How many people had to have read that
workbook? If none of them were aware that biological males can't get pregnant and give birth then that is worrying, but of course they knew, and that they kept quiet for fear of condemnation is an even bigger worry. What other fantasies will be peddled unchallenged?

That's the concern....I've got visions of activists, pushing every reasonable boundary, just to cause a fuss, because they can.?

Oh they will, there are a lots of 'Charlie Moore's out there, he of Monsoon fame who wanted a prom dress for a non existent prom. Just wanted the publicity, no thought or care for the innocents who got hurt by his actions.

Of course. We can basically write the script now.

An obvious male will go into an inappropriate space, that should be exempt from this free for all, wind up any biological women/girls, who don't wish to share the space with him, and then be on to the police, bleating that he's "worried".

It'll then be an article and "victim face", complete with piteous sobbing, all over a sympathetic tabloid....?

There is an offence of 'wasting police time'. I'm pretty sure it would be invoked if women were calling 999 about this, so TW should be treated likewise.

Here is Matt Walsh making a lot of sense on this subject.

video.fgla2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/279696415_581701882958980_2902697247057581625_n.mp4?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=985c63&efg=eyJybHIiOjM3MiwicmxhIjo1MTIsInZlbmNvZGVfdGFnIjoic3ZlX3NkIn0%3D&_nc_ohc=XW9Hsa9QhgoAX_ZisR0&_nc_ht=video.fgla2-1.fna&oh=00_AT8j97zsxOSBZyUn6ShmvpqjpPb108txAb6shiLW2xrjBw&oe=626FCDD4

Mollygo

^I wonder if it's also ok for biological women to dial 999, if we feel unsafe sharing female only places?^

I have this image of people frantically dialling 999 to complain about each other.
We’re back to the place where, if a TW makes it obvious that they’re a male then they shouldn’t be in female spaces. I recall being told by the absent few that TW had been among us, unnoticed for years.
Maybe that’s because those TW wished to remain unnoticed, not to foist themselves on females just to prove they can.

I definitely think this is happening, and I know that some of the older, less militant, TW are very uncomfortable about it.

The 'making a point' thing was discussed earlier in the thread wrt India Willoughby, who said that even though there was a gender-neutral loo available she would deliberately use the women's one 'just to make a point'.

India probably has been passing as a woman, for several years, and had convinced himself that the fiction was true.
And now he's become quite unreasonable in insisting that the rest of us should believe it too.

At gym this am, there’s a class which has a timetable for male and mixed classes. I asked why and was told that the male class was more rigorous, but some men couldn’t cope with that, so rather than have a lower ability male class, they’ve called it mixed. So far, it’s only men who use it. I wonder where TW would want to go?

Wow, Farnorth that video sums it up in a nut(!)shell!

Yes, I think that's what's happened. When India went into the BB house there is no doubt she felt that she was a woman, and was going to have no-one say otherwise. For context, Amanda Barrie, a gay woman who was then in her 80s, had accidentally 'misgendered' India in a conversation earlier. It was clearly something that must happen a lot to someone like India, but it was definitely and blatantly used as a way of gaining attention, an attempt at getting the sympathy of the public, and to 'make a point'. It didn't work, as IW was the first to be voted out. That this wasn't as a result of public transphobia is obvious, as the winner was Courtney Act, a 'gender-fluid' Australian drag queen, who was intelligent, aware, and sensitive to others throughout, unlike India, who was an unmitigated pain in the arse.

I think that was the most interesting BB ever - there was a real mix of characters, and issues of 'gender', feminism and sexual politics were seen and discussed from all sides. It's hard to believe that it was only 2018 - the days when these issues weren't loaded with threats and accusations of phobia and so on seem like they happened in another era.

Sorry - I should learn to type faster. The above was in reply to FN's post about IW believing she is a woman.

On Twitter, India is deliberately misgendering Debbie Hayton. He hates Debbie because Debbie says she (I'll use preferred pronouns for Debbie) remains male, accepts she's a transwoman, knows sex is immutable. India says Debbie is a man, despite Debbie having had full reassignment surgery, and refers to he and him. Such a raving hypocrite! India can believe whatever he wants but he can't make me believe it.

Debbie Hayton states that he is a man, and a transwoman.
Calling male people 'women' and 'she' increases confusion so I don't do it.

IW, of course, is being nasty.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-woman-debbie-hayton-faces-ban-for-transphobia-96tfkl5gc

I think IW is nasty.

Calling male people 'women' and 'she' increases confusion so I don't do it.

FWIW, I will use people's preferred pronouns when politeness dictates, or for those who 'live as' the opposite sex (eg IW), or students who 'identify' as the opposite sex. I wouldn't stoop to making a point myself, IYKWIM?

However, I refuse to be bullied into declaring my own 'preferred pronoun', as I think they should be assumed to follow sex (which is immutable) unless someone specifically asks otherwise. I don't use them if I know that someone is flipping back and forth, as I don't think it is my responsibility to remember someone else's preferences. I would be unhappy to be asked to call a bearded transwoman who has made no attempt to look female 'she', as people like that do seem to be 'making a point', and expecting others to pander to them - I've never been asked to do that, though.

What do people make of this?
Shock horror. Men and women ARE different.Who would have thought it?

It makes all this preffered pronoun business seem like a joke.
You can't argue with science.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-61258731