“Mixed” hospital wards - thought we’d seen the last of these

I think people will hold different views kali, I think your friend is a man and should not be in any womens spaces. Many transwomen use the spaces of their biological sex or mixed sex spaces. I would fight for your friend to have access to spaces that kept them safe but not at the expense of womens safety, privacy etc.

Look what happened to JK Rowling. We are all in danger on this thread of being cancelled in similar fashion because, for once we are all in agreement, so far anyway. Women’s rights are being undermined.

I have a good friend who is trans - and has had a full reversal from male to female, 11 years ago. Would you object to her being in a women only bay? Sadly because she did this quite late in life, most people guess when they meet her. Very tall, big hands, Adam's apple and deep voice.

Many years ago I was in hospital on a mixed sex ward. One male patient continually made inappropriate remarks to the nurses and women patients. One woman had just undergone an operation and was worried about her husband at home, who had dementia. This man would stand by her bedside saying what he would like to do to her and causing her much distress - nurses said there was nothing they could do about it. When my husband visited me I told him, he immediately went across to the man and, although I have no idea what he said to him, he never bothered the women on the ward again whilst I was there. It seems we are going back to women being second or even third class citizens with the needs of all others placed before theirs

Or perhaps speaking up for the most vulnerable women, those in prison for example who no one really gives any cares about. Or a journalist doing her bloody job, when others dont. Thank God there are some women who have the capacity to speak up because many cant as they risk being fired for doing so.

If you need Helen Joyce to tell you you are being silenced can it really be true? She's a journalist making pots of money by scaring the shit out of quite ordinary women. She's been criticised for misrepresenting the truth and using questionable headlines to sesationalise events.

It’s just all so scary! I expect to be safe especially when vulnerable in hospital and more so as I get older and I really fear for my DDs and DGDs.
As others have said folk can “dress up or whatever” as much as they like but if they have male genitalia they must be with other men. What will it take to make those in power see this?

I wanted to know more about what’s happening within transgender ideology and I’m reading TRANS written by Helen Joyce. I cannot adequately express my horror !! Taken from the forward - In just ten years, laws company policies school and university curricular, sport medical protocols and the media have been reshaped to privilege self declared identity over biological sex. Every woman needs to read this book, Women are again being erased and silenced, I know I need to find my courage to stand up for values of Freedom of belief, and freedom and of speech. People are being shamed and silenced just for attempting to understand the consequences of redefining “man” and “women” according to feelings rather than facts.

AGAA4

Even in 2021 women are still having to fight for their rights. We should feel safe anywhere and it seems that previously safe places for women are being encroached upon by men.
Why are their rights more important than ours?

This is the crux of the arguments about trans rights. In my experience the vast majority of women are happy for men to transition if that is what they want to do, but not happy for them to do it at the expense of the comfort and security of women.

The idea that men have to be treated as women in order to be able to do the gender-specific things that go along with that is difficult for me to understand, as I don't feel that I live my life on a gendered basis, and don't know anyone who does. Yes, I sometimes wear dresses, and I do things like knit and cook, but men can (and do) do all of those things if they want to, without any of the rest of the things that go with being female.

Men can't have children, and the ones who transition (medically or otherwise) have not been socialised as women, so they can't possibly know what 'living as a woman' is like. They know what living as a man is like, and what living as a transitioned man is like, but I don't think it is the same thing.

Even so, if they are happy with that they can crack on as far as I'm concerned, but I will still object to their turning up in female changing rooms or hospital wards or DV refuges where women are vulnerable and want to be with other women. As has been said before on these threads, if they had been socialised as women they would understand that and put the needs of the vulnerable ahead of their wants.

Even in 2021 women are still having to fight for their rights. We should feel safe anywhere and it seems that previously safe places for women are being encroached upon by men.
Why are their rights more important than ours?

I would feel very uncomfortable about being in a mixed ward. As well as the cultural and religious issues already mentioned, what about women who have been physically abused by men?

there are so many issues with this whole topic.
some have speculated that there are a group of men who are deliberately trying to undermine women's safe spaces, and that it is part of male power play.
maybe in some cases.
what of male bodied people getting undressed in communal changing rooms in swimming pools, in front of children, in the women's area.
what about women who want to be only examined by a woman.
what if the nurse/doctor has male anatomy but insists they identify as a woman. how would that woman patient feel.

I agree about the cultural aspect, and am very uneasy about men who identify as women being on female wards, but the article is not about all transwomen - it is about convicted sex offenders.

The fact that the sensitivities of male sex offenders are being put above those of vulnerable women is just dreadful, IMO, and gives the lie to the argument that it is 'out of touch' and hysterical women who have concerns about the issues.

Women are generally socialised to be accommodating and expected to be 'caring', and IMO this is being used to force women to take on the problems that come from men wanting to identify as female. As it is men who are identifying out of their sex, why don't men deal with it? Surely transwomen who are, in fact, still men would be better off on male wards? As others have said, their medical needs may be better served there, and they would present no issues (religious, cultural or safety) to women who are already ill and vulnerable.

Even beyond the possibility of assault etc, there is the cultural aspect. Some cultures will not permit women to share the same space as a man to whom they are not related. Are their concerns to be sacrificed to male-bodied people, too?

Sago I’m appalled by your story and I’m not surprised the effect on you has continued.
I’m glad that some people have not had a negative experience or been attacked by a man or a transwoman in a mixed ward, but that doesn’t make it right.
It’s like saying ‘lots of people haven’t been murdered, so why incarcerate murders’. That sounds extreme, but if you or your family are among those who have suffered at the hands of such a murderer, you’d probably have a different viewpoint.
It would be wrong not to incarcerate them, just as the current situation in hospitals and prisons is wrong.
In my post on the Women thread @9.59 this morning I gave an example of the danger of mixed sex wards.
How many bad experiences must women suffer before this is dealt with in a manner which protects women before considering the rights of transwomen.
Transphobia is an irrational fear of something. There is nothing irrational about fear of a transwoman who ID’s as a woman to give him access, but displays and behaves as a man, in a place where a woman is entitled to be safe.

Sorry but you can identify as a penguin, but if you happen to have a penis and testicles you are a man and should be treated as such.

Male and female bodies are different, they have different medical issues and needs. I am all for folks having the right to identify as what/whoever but it is medically impossible to change the chromosomes that you were born with.

Women have battled for years for safe places and many other rights that men have always had and I do not think that in the 21st century we should be in a position whereupon we have to resume this battle,

Hospitals should be a safe place for all patients.

There are too few staff in the hospitals to police situations which could arise with men identifying as women and being on female wards.

Patient representatives fought for years to ban same sex wards. Now because a small minority put gender above biological sex, this will become the norm again. I find the comments from certain trusts are appalling, and horrific.No a persons criminal record is not discussed before or on admission , even if in handcuffs, to a hospital ward, only obviously their medical problems, so no one will be aware of any sexual transgression, amongst any patient. Discomfort for women is becoming a ˋI don’t care problem,‘ as long as vociferous minorities have power in certain institutions, this will become the way of life.

That’s a shocking thing to have happened, Sago. I am very sorry.

The NHS has to provide single sex wards, not single gender wards. How would the NHS deal with someone like Eddie Izzard, who sometimes has his boy brain and sometimes his girl brain. Or Philip/Pip Bunce who is sometimes a man and sometimes a woman? Would they move wards each day depending on how they felt each morning?

My father was briefly on an all-male geriatric ward at the end of his life. The behaviour of some patients was extreme and if they had not been suffering from dementia would have been regarded as criminal in the outside world. My father (who didn’t have dementia) woke one night to find another man climbing into bed with him. My dad was able to call for help, but imagine that had been a frail, elderly woman who was unable to get attention, to find a naked man getting into her bed?

So sorry to hear that Sago, dreadful experience.
I remember when I was a Student, a patient tried to strangle another one, due to her Snoring, Police investigation full works, this was a Female ward.
Today Hospitals still have " mixed" wards very few "Nightingale" wards left in UK hospitals, if any.
Most hospital wards are now 6 - 8 bedded side wards within a main ward. If for example it is a Respiratory ward all the skills are within that ward area, not dashing between 2 or more wards. Also the Bed team can control the bed status within the Hospital, so specialist areas they don't get "outliers".
Prisoners are always (in my experience) in a single room with at least x2 guards.
Same for Transgender individuals own room it should not be a problem? But on the correct specialist ward.

Some months after my incident I was approached in a restaurant by a woman I didn’t recognise, she was a nurse on the ward on which I wasn’t assaulted.

She asked for my phone number she wanted to come and see myself and my husband to “ explain” a few things.

She had resigned from her position immediately after the incident, what she told us about safety, management and care was shocking.
She suggested we sued and was willing to put her neck on the line and testify.

I was too traumatised to sue and needed to put my energy into recovering.
Had I done so I think it would have been headline news!
The bigger picture was dreadful, the patient who assaulted me should never have been out of a secure unit.
He was leaving the hospital to get drugs then returning high, staff did nothing.

Wards with bays for males and bays for females is one thing. Allowing male sex people who self id as women to be admitted to a female bay is quite another. Discomfort of the many for the desire of one individual is wrong and that discomfort is not transphobic. Would it be OK to object to a male who identifies as male being given his preference of joining the females?

Sago what an awful experience for you!

It seems to me that there's always someone who wishes to abuse loopholes. I think that the needs of women undergoing medical care should be a first consideration, not a last. Even if it is inconvenient.

This is not just about mixed-sex wards - it is about convicted male sex offenders being placed on wards 'according to the gender they identify with'.

How that can be seen as a grey area where 'it is impossible to have a single rule' is beyond me.