The EU - "Take it or Leave it." No alternative agreement.

You seem to have forgotten Caledonail that it was the EU who said that Scotland couldn't be accepted as a member if they were independent of the UK.

Well said Caledonail but unfortunately your well-expressed and sincere post will be disregarded and dismissed on GN in much the same way as the SNP MP's were rudely dismissed yesterday in HoC.
So much easier to skip over a post and ignore it than it is to read it, think about it and respect the poster enough to consider the points expressed.
I agree that many were lulled into a false sense of security by being told that voting no was the only way to stay in the EU.

it was the EU who said that Scotland couldn't be accepted as a member if they were independent of the UK

It doesn't matter who said it. The point Caledonail made was that Scots voted to remain part of the UK because it would keep them in the EU. Which is what the Scots wanted then and what they still want. If I were Scottish I'd be mad as hell about this.

Your post of 10.13 is excellent Caledonail

yes, and not shouty at all either ;)

Smileless, the EU said Scotland's entry would not be automatic and - at that time - they thought rUK would still be one of its most important member states with the power of veto.

With rUK gone from the EU powerbase after next March (though, effectively not at the top table right now), I can't see what would stop Scotland being welcomed back inaboot with open arms.

We'd never get the kind of privileged, inclusive deal the UK has with the EU at the moment, of course.

Which goes back to the OP and the very valid points made and questions asked there. Sadly, yes, I think the EU is right to say: "Take it or leave it."

We have made ourselves a laughing stock worldwide and people like Donald Trump must be rubbing his hands in glee at the thought of our desperation for deals after we finish throwing ourselves off the bus.

Not only have we made ourselves a laughing stock, but we have wasted so much time and spent billions, and forced our EU partners to waste enormous amounts of their time and money on this nonsense.

Whether we are permitted to remain in the EU or whether we leave, we have caused so much damage to our reputation that we may never recover.

I think that if we abandoned our ridiculous FPTP voting system, varian, and got governments which were more representative of 'the people' of all shades of opinion we might regain some of that reputational damage by having more pragmatic and sensible governments which work for the good of the Nation, not for the good of the Party.

Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have agreed to take part in a live TV debate on Brexit before MPs vote on the deal.

What is the point in that? Both May and Corbyn believe this "will of the people" nonsense and seem to think it is all about who could negotiate the best deal.

If there was to be a proper tv debate it should involve speakers for "deal" or "remain".

LBC Radio host James O'Brien, a passionate remainer, has a better suggestion -"I would like to see people who do for a living all of the things that are poised to be affected by Brexit - for good or for ill. I'd rather just see a decent journalist interview a really big haulage firm, or the man that runs the Port of Dover, or the Civil Aviation Authority, or possibly the Bank of England. I'm not really interested in what Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May have to say anymore because they are making it up as they go along. I wish we could create a platform where we could pick the brains of people who know what they're talking about. You could do it in both ways - you could have somebody who is still clinging to the carcass of Brexit on the stage and someone like me and we'd take it in turns to ask questions. My questions would be designed to highlight the potential problems that these people foresee and the other person's questions would be designed to minimise the impact of these potential problems and you might actually learn something."

Let’s face it the EU have been blamed for all the ills of the U.K. for the last 40 odd years, when it’s our own internal policies and archaic institutions which need addressing. I’m sure many voted leave as a protest against domestic isssues and are now realising life isn’t going to get much better outside of the biggest free trade area in the world which is on our doorstep. The EU were clear on their position from day 1, whereas our esteemed negotiators have sold us lies about how easy it would be and what a great deal we were bound to get, how we hold all the cards etc, when the truth has been completely the opposite.

As May and Corbyn seem to basically agree on Brexit there seems very little point in such a sterile exercise. I like O'Brien's suggestion much better.

Although it would be absolutely pointless, unless we're gearing up for a General Election, I'd prefer to have them debate on domestic issues; like the imminent collapse of the NHS, the rollout of Universal Credit; the rise in foodbanks, budget crises in schools (I've just heard from a friend that they're having to get rid of all their support staff because the school can't afford them), immigration policy, etc. And no seeing the questions in advance.

Today programme this morning. The debate should include an eminent Remainer who'd really make the case to stay (and JC wouldn't.)
Went on to suggest it should be Tony Blair!
OMG! I want to remain but involving him would be the seal of doom.
A bit like having a campaign to recruit blood donors, fronted by Count Dracula!!

No they couldn’t, & Yes she is.
So many people behaving disgracefully.

Varian your “will of the people nonsense” goes by another name - democracy.

Our democracy was high-jacked and corrupted by malign forces which persuaded about 27% of the population to believe lies. That is not a true democracy.

I know that if we have a People's Vote, where, for the first time, we will be allowed to vote on the deal which has been negotiated, not some pie in the sky cake-and-eat-it deal, we could not guarantee that the same unholy coalition of foreign billionaires, newspaper proprietors, tax dodgers and currency speculators could not do the same again.

That is why I would prefer our MPs to act in the interests of the country, reject this deal which would leave us much worse off than we are now, and do what they truly believe, ie rescind Article 50 and Remain in the EU.

The vote was put to the people , the result was leave not maybe .

We weren’t told exactly what leave would mean were we? We still don’t know. Just trotting out will of the people nonsense means nothing. It wasn’t some sort of landslide. A huge % don’t want this complete sh*tshow. We are people too.

I don't respect a 'democracy' which ignores cheating.

Or which doesn't allow people to change their minds.

Given what has emerged since the referendum about the cheating, lies and dubious sources of funding I would have thought that Leavers might be embarrassed by the dodgy result and would be glad to have a chance to gain a clean win. So much for the much vaunted British belief in fair play. Win by any means, fair or foul, seems to be the standard now...

‘Leavers might be embarrassed by the dodgy result’ haha is that the best you can come up with MaizieD ?
If Remain had won the day by their own cheating and lies and gross exaggerations, would you have been embarrassed I wonder? Actually, I don’t wonder, I know you wouldn’t be.
You can’t have a re-run of the referendum because you don’t like the result and calling it ‘a people’s vote’ won’t wash either......the referendum was a people’s vote!
At least both May and Corbyn understand that.

In a true honest democracy the discovery of the lies, cheating and blatant rule-breaking would have meant the result would have to be declared void and the whole referendum be rerun.
If this had happened in an obscure country ruled by a disreputable regime, the world would be shouting corruption!

A lot of the Brexit voters don’t like the WA either- so how can it be called the will of the people?

I did ask someone the other day to give me an example of what the remain campaign lied about, and all they could come up with was the threat of an emergency budget. That was it.

Go on., lemon. Embarrass me.

Not only did the Leave campaign lie repeatedly during the run up to the referendum, they are still doing it, spouting blatant lies on programmes like Question Time where they are constantly given a platform and never challenged. Many in the carefully selected audience (the "audience selector" is a former UKIP member) lap it up and cheer.

Watch this video of the numerous lies and distortions in just one minute's worth of a diatribe by arch-brexiter Tim Martin being fact-checked and torn to shreds by someone who is well informed, Dr Mike Galsworthy of Scientists for EU.

www.facebook.com/scientistsforeu/videos/1230767310394956/UzpfSTEwMzU3MDAxMTA6Vks6NTIzMTAxODI4MTY2MTM0/