Would you support the doctors' strike.

I don't know exactly how many working hours are included in the new contract but I wonder how the DRs hours on duty compare with that of lorry drivers and airplane drivers who are legally prevented from working more that certain hours because of safety concerns about over tired staff.

The Dr's and nurses also face losing unsocial hours payments for night and weekends etc. As I said further down this thread there are a lot of health issues involved in shift work as well as the detrimental effects effects on family life.

The Government is using the great commitment of most Drs to their profession to emotionally black mail them to accept these new arrangements.

100% behind junior doctors and other public sector workers fighting to maintain/provide a quality service for you, me and other 'ordinary' people. Having a 'vocation'as in medics/teachers/ sw et al is not a reason not to pay a decent wage. Public services have been cut to the bone: in schools, in medical services, local councils and many aspects handed over to private companies. Private companies are only keen if there is a profit to be had. Why is my tax making money for G4S, Veolia, etc? If there is a profit to be made I want it ploughed back into the public purse to extend/ maintain services. I noted too, that the money, legally claimed, by London based peers for travel expenses to House of Lords (in 2 months) was about £730k +, the equivalent to the annual budget for the 180 place Infant School where I am a governor. How can that be right?

I'm catching up on this thread with my morning cup of tea and want to thank Candelle, hummingbird, Wilma, Anya, Alea, Nelliemoser and Penstemmon (i.e. everyone posting after Candelle) for your posts. Consensus on gransnet about the need to support our public servants - now how do we get the government to listen.

If no agreement is reached Hunt will force the new contracts on the doctors

It appears that the new contract limits the number of hours that Junior Doctors mays work - now about 90 a week - new contract about 70 a week. It also cuts down on the number of continuous nights worked. It seems to me that this strike is about the doctors retaining their autonomy and being free to earn more overtime. I have an aversion to hypocrisy.

If their hours are to be reduced and if there are fewer doctors on duty at weekends how is reduced hours going to give more doctors on duty at weekends?

More doctors will be on duty at weekends - the aim of the new contract is that not all but less of the weekend work will be "overtime". It is an attempt to shift the idea of hospital work to a 24/7 need. Hopefully more doctors will be recruited. At the same time efficiencies need to be made in the NHS. A massive waste of resources is witnessed by most patients. More important is to promote a healthier lifestyle culture to reduce the demand.

The new contract in practice removes the protection from doctors working too many hours.

Working hour safeguards—the proposed removal of penalties has also proved controversial

The government has said that under the new contract doctors would not be allowed to work more than 72 hours in seven consecutive days, or to work more than four consecutive night shifts. There’d also be a new process for reviewing working hours on the request of either a junior doctor or their supervisor.

The BMA argues that in practice the removal of the banding system for unsocial hours will also remove safeguards that go alongside them, including financial penalties for employers who subject trainees to “fatiguing” working patterns. That could drive up hours and put patients at risk, it says.

The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH) agrees, saying their removal “will damage patient well-being”, while the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has said the proposals mean “there is now a significant chance of returning to the ‘bad old days’ of over-burdened junior doctors in danger of giving sub-standard care.”

NHS Employers disagrees, saying that the penalties haven’t reduced working hours. It says its analysis shows credit for this should go to the European Working Time Directive.

fullfact.org

Anan, if more doctors will be on duty at weekends this will mean less doctors through the week . How can less hours be extended over more days yet no extra doctors

Of course. But at the moment patients are really suffering substandard care at the weekends. This is not going to be addressed by the current contract. It appears that we shall need extra doctors. The aim is better care for patients at any time of the week.

A junior doctor vividly described the situation as it is-almost every shift she does is at least one doctor short, so she ends up carrying 2 emergency beepers and is responsible for 400 rather than 200 patients. The proposed changes would make this situation much worse and put patients at risk. Strangely enough I believe her rather than anyone in this government. It seems rather obvious to me- how can you have more cover with the same number of doctors when they can't cover everything now? Hunt is trying to make out that things would be better when it is patently obvious they would be worse.

Anniebach mentioned that there are no strikes planned in Wales and Scotland. Given that the money available for the NHS in these Countries is exactly the same proportionally as that available in England perhaps there are lessons to be learned from the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament in terms of good 'Housekeeping'?

The problem at weekends is the availability and the cost of a senior consultant. Junior doctors already work 7 days a week.

Alea Angela Rippon did a report for the One Show last night. The sound was turned off on our TV, so I didn't hear it. I did think she looked ridiculous though, but that's a different subject.

Trisher, your post illustrates a very different problem. If we are prepared to spend more of our money on the NHS then we can work towards increasing the number of doctors. The new contract addresses the separate issue of cover in hospitals 24/7.

Ah, thank you wilmaetc. I sometimes wonder why some people are seen as "pundits" when their previous experience hardly seems to have qualified them.
Thank you for explaining that

Fair does Alea she was wonderful on Morecambe and Wise.

I was a patient at one of the very few clinics open at my local hospital yesterday and people thought that a junior doctor was one with around 6 months out of medical school. They were surprised to hear that a junior doctor is one up to but not including consultant level.

I think that they may lose a lot of public support if they do not cover emergency services when they intend to strike in February. They would lose mine for that reason.

Does England still have those drop in centres ? Not A & E

Yes, some but open very few hours, certainly around my area.

My sister was rushed in just before Christmas on a Saturday, saw by doctors, had a second heart attack so was rushed to another hospital accompanied by a nurse from intensive care unit, she was operated on within fifteen minutes of admission, this was now Saturday evening , the hospital in Cardiff covers a very wide area and their Saturday nights are hectic

I agree that 24 hour, seven day a week care should be available and well resourced, and who wouldn't! but although I think the point has been made somewhere else on this thread, targeting junior doctors is not the panacea it's being presented as. In order to provide weekend care at the same level as weekdays will require huge investment - radiography, laboratory, pharmacy, theatres, nursing, ancillary, volunteers - the list is endless. The NHS needs a whole system rather than a piecemeal review, and an acknowledgment that without a massive injection of cash (highly unlikely) full 7 day working is pie in the sky.

Thank you Charliegirl

Hummingbird, I fully agree

Anan why is it a different problem? If junior doctors think this contract is unworkable and unsafe for patients and they have given their reasons but Hunt isn't listening surely that IS the problem.

Anan, the government still wants the NHS to save £22 billion and then it will give it an extra £8 billion.
I do not see how they can pay for more doctors. Efficiency saving in the NHS, like anywhere else, means fewer staff.
That is also why the government is lying about doctors getting more pay. They are not putting any more money into the NHS, so how are they going to pay doctors more?
I think you have been conned by Lansley and Hunt.

richardhutton.wordpress.com/2016/01/12/the-right-minded-view-on-the-junior-doctors-strike/