Nelson Mandela

Dignity in Dying is the South African version of the Swiss Dignitas. At least, they would like it to be. I think they are still campaigning for changes in the law. Good luck to them.

Like Bags, I too find the modern reaction to someone of this age reaching the end of their life often unhelpful and slightly hysterical. We are all going to die at some point and the modern view that death should be fought against no matter the age or health of the individual concerned, troubles me.
Preserving a life - even of someone as magnificent as Nelson Mandella, must be balanced with how that is achieved and what his wishes are.
I know this subject is deeply personal but I can honestly say that I would be far happier knowing that my family would let me drift off gently if I lived this long than be subjected to a lot of medical intervention that would only postphone the inevitable, by probably a few months.

The hysterics following Diana's death could't possibly compare though

Greatnan sadly the ruling government in SA (including Jacob Zuma the current President) have already strayed very far from Nelson Mandela's vision. But that discussion is for another thread I think.

MiceElf that's interesting, I've learnt something new.

granjura I've never heard that saying so perhaps it was a piece of 'family wisdom'. Also, Afrikaans has incorporated words from many other languages - KhoiSan, Malay, Portuguese and many of the indigenous languages, so there are regional expressions in Afrikaans depending on whether people come from the Cape or other provinces. Natal Afrikaans for example is full of English and Zulu words. (And likewise many English speaking Natalians use slang Afrikaans words in their speech, even my ex-pat English best friend who still lives there).

lilygran no, I don't think that all honorific terms indicate some sort of subservience, I'd say there's a lot more to it than just the terms, and context is important too.

All is know is how something makes me feel is very different to applying ruthless logic or taking an analytical approach to exactly what words mean. I don't always have to know why something makes me feel the way it does, I simply acknowledge and experience the emotion.

The South African president identifying with the nation's collective sense of love and concern for 'the Father of the Nation' and expressing that (doesn't really matter what words he used) unifies South Africans in their love for a leader who is revered and coming to the end of his life. And I identify with that.

Mandela is a good man to copy with regard to dignity. It's what he did best.

Optician called me Mrs the other day, after asking how to pronounce my surname. He hadn't met me before. Nor I him, but he introduced himself by his first name only. Formalities are changing. Good. Politeness stays the same with or without formality. Good also.

No panic, but I remember some dignified mourning on the death of Churchill, and something approaching hysteria on the death of Diana.
We can only hope that when Mandela does die his people, of all backgrounds, will stay true to his vision.

'Madame' in France is a universal term of greeting for all women judged to be too mature to be 'Mademoiselle' and is very useful as there are no implications of status.

I used to feel embarrassed in the village in Malaysia where my daughter lived, because I would be ushered to the front of a queue at the post office or shop, but I decided they were just showing courtesy to a visitor.

lily . Yes.

'Going home' after an exceptional life.

Sir and Madam sound subservient.

Don't know what it's got to do with poor old Nelson though.

Grannyknot I don't think of honorific terms as indicating some kind of subservience. do,you think 'Sir', 'Madam', Mr, Mrs etc do?

Slight tangent. It's David Crystal, Professor of Linguistics, who defines the glottal stop as on a continuum from the click.

"Making steady progress".

Can somebody who speaks Afrikaans please tell me how to spell 'use your jochems' (=brains- as my mil always used to tell me).

Annodomini - lala salama ..

South Africa is still a very divided country - and Tata Madiba somehow seems to hold it together, but only just. It is very naive to say that South African should not panic about his (imminent??) demise - it is very likely to throw the country in turmoil, sadly.

My OH's family comes from a huge mixture of backgrounds, English, Cape Malays/Indonesian, Boers and Norvegian and black African- these different groups, despite appearances post Apartheid, have very little to do with each other- and different African tribes see each other as enemies. It would not take much to 'ignite' the country

(My OH's parents were designated mum as 'coloured' and father as 'white' - they and 2 young children emigrated to UK in 1947- able to do so because father's father was British).

Thank you, Eloethan. I appreciate your saying that. I still think the calm intepretation of "keep calm and carry on" is not really what the words "the country must not panic" imply. Those words suggest to me a kind of fear that things could get out of hand. I accept that I could be wrong about that, but "don't panic" said casually is quite different from the president of a country saying don't panic.

Bags I think what you said was a perfectly acceptable observation and I don't understand why it seemed to annoy some people.

Of course, it's very sad when people who are much loved and respected die, but I think it might be unwise to suggest that the death of a particular person could be a reason for panic, even accepting grannyknot 's comment that in South Africa "panic" has a different meaning.

Ariadne, me too! I don't think the glottal stop and the click is comparable though - the one involves the back of the throat and the other, the tongue against the palate.

Anyway lucky you! When?

I wouldn't interpret Jacob Zuma's not to panic remark in that way. I think he was simply warning the people of the grief that may come shortly. To get them prepared. But not to give up hope.

I hope he has a few more years on this earth. He must have spent nearly a third of his life so far imprisoned on Robben Island.

I'd never thought of Estuary English's glottal stop being on the way to a Zulu click, but I know which I find more attractive! I am so looking forward to our post project visit to KwaZulu Natal.

annodomini that sort of deferential way of addressing people still makes me flinch and brings back every bit of guilt I ever may have harboured.

Actually, it would have been 'suh-iss-uh-er'.

In Kenya, we, young women teachers, were called Memsahib by servants, waiters, shopkeepers, a term adopted in Swahili from the Indians brought in to build the railway. The men, however, were known as Bwana. Being a Memsahib took a bit of getting used to - it sounds so imperialist.

Will now have to Google 'London glottal stop' . Language and the use of it is fascinating.

I had a Canadian supply teacher lodger a year ago and she was dumbfounded by the lack of the use of consonants by the kids in her classes. Her and I practised saying e.g. 'solicitor' without using consonants till we got to something that sounded like 'suh-us-uh-ter'. It wasn't easy .

Respect, Grannyknot! It's easy to forget a language though, without constant practice it fades away so swiftly.

Those clicks are really hard. Even the London glottal stop comes nowhere near it.