Ex Pats deserting Spain

sorry a few typos there.. I wish we could edit our posts.. but then I guess I should learn to preview!! note to self!

I am a bit sympathetic Tanith. I don't have much sympathy for the people who left without working out that exchange rates go up and down or those who thought that they could make an easy living without having to work too hard. I think programmes about "buying a new life in the sun" have a lot to answer for as it was very rare for the presenters to point out any disadvantages at all.
Having said that, we did loads of research before we moved to France, speak the language well, have lots of friends in the local community and made sure that we had adequate resources to live on, whatever the exchange rate might be. I still don't think that all the preparation in the world can make you realise what it is actually like to live in another country; I thought I knew France, but actually I didn't really know the half of it until I got here. We will probably move back to the UK eventually. The thought of battling French bureacracy through ill-health and bereavement is not something I would relish.

Thanks Mamie, what I find incredulous is how people couldn't work out that if they sold up and moved lock stock and barrel to a 'cheaper' life out there , spending their savings on a nice time in the sun , that come the day they might want to come back they wouldn't be able to afford a home here? Its not rocket science! Sorry I guess the guy they interviewed just seemed to be blaming someone else for his misfortune.

Oh I quite agree; I get really cross when people don't take responsibility for their own actions and moan because they can't get help from the authorities who don't even speak English (shock horror!) Strangely enough they are often people who moan about immigrants in the UK who don't learn the language / expect benefits etc etc, but I think the irony escapes them!
We have quite a big house here, with a cottage in the garden and a fairly large garden. It will probably buy us a small three-bedroomed house or flat back in the UK, which will be fine by that stage. I don't think we will make any money at all on the property, but we will have the had the experience of restoring a lovely, old stone house, experienced living in another country and made a lot of friends. I don't ask any more than that, really.

Like you Mamie I cannot believe how cavalier some people are when buying property in Europe - when we bought our house in France 15 years ago it was before the Euro and the exchange rate was poor - we bought a property we could pay cash for so therefore not huge but in a lovely place and we have about an acre - over the years we have made a lot of improvements but again as and when we had the money as this was a holiday home.
We do now hope to move there full time and have our UK house for sale but do not intend to squander any proceeds.
On a happier note I see the exchange rate is slightly more in our favour at the moment!

Indeed, 1.24 for the first time in ages!
I would say though that if we were doing it again we would probably have bought a smaller property here and kept a "toe-hold" in the UK.
Must get off Gransnet and get ready for the village Victory in Europe ceremony at the war memorial today!

I do feel sorry for those people, whether Brits or others, who had their land confiscated and had to pay towards the new roads, etc. which were built on what had been their garden. I also feel sorry for those who were mis-sold properties which did not have proper planning consent.

I knew exactly what to expect when I moved to France as I had already lived in Monaco and Brussels, but there are plenty of posters on expat forums who are what we call 'fluffies' - i.e. they have seen 'A Place in the Sun' and think that one gite will provide them with a living, the artisans will all be 'quaint' and everybody will understand English. Because they live in quiet, rural areas they think there is no crime in France - 'We all leave our doors open, like Britian in the 1950's'. They should read the French newspapers or watch the news to find out about crime levels in the big cities
Because property is comparatively cheap, they buy crumbling money-pits with 20 acres, with no idea how to manage the land. The French are far too canny to undertake renovation and prefer to leave the old properties to decay and build shiny new houses. Now the flow of expats has dried up, I am afraid that what were once lovely old houses will just become ruins.

There are endless requests for English-speaking doctors, lawyers, hair-dressers, vets, car mechanics, etc. and demands that French schools should make special provision for their children who have never had a French lesson before the move to France.
Many of them say they left England because of the high levels of immigration (my daughter hears the same in NZ) - they are not being ironic, just thick! But of course, they are not immigrants, they are expats!

It is quite true that I could not afford even a two-bedroomed terraced cottage in most parts of England now but that was not my motivation for moving to France anyway. When I do come to sell my flat, I will have enough capital to buy a demountable 'cottage' in New Zealand which will be sited in my daughter's very large garden. It will add to the value of her house and I will not be bound by the inheritance rules which are so strict in France. Her sister agreed that it was fair that the daughter who will undertake to care for me, should I ever need it, should have some financial recompense.

I don't take any satisfaction from the distress of elderly people just because they did not do enough research before they emigrated - we are not all blessed with the same level of education or forethought.

I saw this article too. I remember being at work when all the fat cat Directors got the push one time and crowed about their little place in the sun they had bought with their pay off (and this was the NHS and Local Governement not private sector so all taxpayers money) so my sympathy well has dried up for them

susie, they are probably not the ones having to leave -- I expect they got quite nice pensions too!

Sunday Times this week said that there are some bargains to be had in Spanish property now - it's an ill wind and all that!

Yes - we nearly moved to France and even had a house lined up - but ill health and other considerations forced a change of heart. We had done masses of research and financial projections for most eventualities. But in my researches around expat forums I was staggered at some of the extraordinary questions that people asked - there would be mums who had just moved there and knew nothing about schools, possible family benefits, health insurance, maternity services etc. - fancy shipping children over there when you know nothing about what their future might hold!

I think in all this though, we should spare some sympathy for people living in Spain at the moment. In the town where my son lives there is 49% unemployment, with youth employment higher than that. Employment rights are disappearing incredibly fast, class sizes will be made larger, schools won't have supply teachers for the first ten days of absence and there is no more money to support children with special needs (my grandson has Asperger's syndrome.)
My son, who teaches English, is working flat out as everybody wants English lessons.

My uncle and his wife lived in a small town near Malaga in the 1980's and '90's and moved back here - where my aunt promptly died of pnuemonia. They loved Spain but the Brits were moving there in droves. Having been there on holidays thought they would love to live in a friendly warm country. Only problem - it's not like the UK!! Suddenly their small Spanish town was beginning to be more and more like Tunbridge Wells at first - then nose dived to Clacton.With Fish and Chip cafes, English bars, buy your egg and chip places etc. The Brits made no effort to speak Spanish or even understand their way of life. They just wanted the UK in the sun. My uncle is a corporate lawyer but even Spanish bureacracy defeated him.

Jumping through hoops and paying quite a lot of money to obtain a residency visa for New Zealand pretty much forces you to consider all aspects of emigrating there. Going to sunny parts of the EU doesn't require such forethought, although obviously some people think hard first. Also, because Spain, France, etc. are geographically close, there is a false assumption that a) they function in pretty much the same way as the UK and b) you can always pack up and come home. However no one anticipated the banking crisis that has had such a devastating effect across the world.

Mamie You say that you might well go back to the UK when old age and illness come along. You also say that you speak french well. So why go back to the UK. I have lived in France for twelve years and my husband died nearly two years ago. The health service is very good - no problem with your good knowledge of the language - and the formalities when my husband died were not a problem. Hardly more than in the UK. You did your homework before coming here and so did we. Regrets - yes a few - such as not changing our oil-fired heating when we did initial work to the house as world-wide the price is so very high. We had oil in the UK so we would have faced the same problem. Actually no. No real regrets.

When I lived in the Pyrenees, I did a house exchange with an English couple to their flat in Balademena. It was hideous - Blackpool at 40C but without the charm and humour. I met the couple and they were the worst racists it has ever been my misfortune to meet. No, they didn't know any Spanish people, except as shop assistants or waiters, because everybody knew they were dirty - oddly enough, the litter that was strewn on the beach every morning seemed to be made up of polystyrene boxes from the many fish and chip ships or tins of imported beer. They spoke no Spanish and had never visited the beautiful, historic towns of Southern Spain. I just made the flat my base to visit Seville, Granada, Jerez and Ronda.

No sympathy if they are in financial straits, but not the sort of people you want back in Britain.

No, I don't really - because I assume they've had quite a good time. I think, too, they have received pensions and have been able to take advantage of the NHS. The fact that they didn't look ahead, I understand, but they have got their problems now in trying to get back because it won't be easy to sell their properties and start again here. Tough! But it's quite tough here too. The Spaniards will miss them too financially, but in some eyes, the Brits tend to ruin anywhere they chance upon! So some will say - good riddance!

I only have holiday experience of other countries except for living in East Africa as a child..so not a similar situation! But the people I have met /know who have moved to live in another country fall into three (broad categories)

1) those who move for the 'myth' that the 'grass is greener' & who often feel GB is the pits and everything is wrong..immigration /tax/weather etc etc and think, unrealistically, they can live the life of Riley elsewhere by replicating habits and lifestyle in GB but,usually, in the sun!

2) those who have a real love of the place they want to move to and adapt to their new locale, speaking the language and getting involved in some of the local (indigenous) community life.

3) those who have gone because of their job /work and who may be there on a temporary basis ( due to work ) or decide to stay because they really like where they were sent to.

Whilst I do not wish anyone real hardship I have far less sympathy for group 1 than I do for 2 & 3!

Well, that lets me off the hook - I am definitely in category 2 except that I don't get involved in anything because there is nothing in which to get involved.

I think there is some misconception that a pension is just a benefit that does not need to be earned. The state retirement pension is not dependent on where you live, but how much you have contributed. It would be unfair if people were to lose all their contributions because they lived abroad. Of course, immigrants to most Commonwealth countries have their pension frozen at the rate it is when they become non resident. It is uprated if you live in any EU country.

In the EU, there is a 'knock for 'knock' rule for healthcare - in other words immigrants from other EU countries are entitled to the same health care as nationals. In Spain, that means that if you are below 60 you have to be self employed or in work. Over 60, you get a form from the DWP saying what health cover you are entitled to receive in Britain. In France, that means I get 70% of my medical costs reimbursed, which is what a French national of similar age would get. I pay private insurance to top up any costs for in patient treatment. French or Spanish people living in the UK would be entitled to full cover because that is what British nationals get.
There was much panic on the French expat forums when the rules were changed a few years ago which meant that early retirees, i.e. those below pension age in Britain, had to take out cover for 100% of treatment.

Greatnan oops! did not mean to sound judgemental. I was just reflecting on what my experience of ex-pats was and it includes members of my own family in all three categories!!!

Before we moved abroad in early 2000 we knew that we would have to work to give ourselves a living we sold the family home here in UK and invested our money giving ourselves a decent return at the time but we still took the route of working for ourselves,our Spanish village was very friendly and welcoming and our language skills improved by the second year we where there becoming fluent by the third year,we where welcomed into local fiesta's and employed a Spanish Chef in our restaurant giving the choice of Spanish or English food.Through out our time there (nearly 10yrs) we paid our business taxes and community taxes which enabled us to qualify for medical treatment which is second to none.We had plans for DS1 & DS2 to take over the business when we retired and they came out of the military but they meet girlfriends who did not want to move abroad and we where very lucky to sell at the right time before the exchange rate went really low,I do feel sorry for the people who are stuck in the negitive equity trap but then there are a lot of people in the same situation in this country now.I am glad we took the opportunity we did at the time we had no DCs living at home and enjoyed our time there even though we worked hard we made some fabulous friends even to this day,I would hate to have reached the age I am now and said "if only"

I am an ex-pat. Have lived in Switzerland since 1977 when I came here as a nurse looking for a challenge, married and had a family. I love many aspects of the UK and sometimes think about returning although it's a "scary" place at the moment. IMO if ex-pats feel they wish to return to the UK, for whatever reason, they should be welcomed back. I sympathise with anyone whose plans have not worked out. There are so many divisive political commentaries going on at the moment so that different sectors of society are encouraged to resent each other.

Yes I agree glammanana, no need to feel you have to stay somewhere for ever, that is part of the fun of life.
I think, flowerfriend, because we have had quite a few struggles with "l'administration" ourselves (mainly caused by those health reforms which caused immense problems and distress for people who had been living here for a year or so when they were rushed in) that we have a different view. As an elected local councillor I also see and hear quite a bit of just how hard life can be for the French and I know we wouldn't want to have to deal with that later on in our lives.

That should perhaps say ... how hard life can be for some French people - clearly not all of them!

Lots of varied views and some having had wonderful experiences , its nice to hear all the different stories. Its a pity people are finding themselves in between a rock and hard place and I'm sure they'd agree with glamanana that they won't be thinking 'if only' in years to come..

gkal I do wonder what you find 'scary' about the UK? Isn't there resentment in many countries all over the world between different factions? Its a case of how you deal with whats going on around you and live your life according to how you want.